Episode 1: Interview with Founder Tera, Queer Divorce and Coming Out

Welcome to episode 1 of the Queer Divorce Club! In this special edition, Tera's partner takes on the role of interviewer as they delve into Tera's personal journey through divorce, coming out, and her current state of being. The conversation explores the intricacies of Tera's divorce, the emotional challenges encountered along the way, and the ongoing healing process following the end of her marriage and the revelation of her true self. Additionally, they discuss the genesis of the Queer Divorce Club and their shared enthusiasm for fostering this empowering community. Join us for this intimate and inspiring conversation as we kickstart the Queer Divorce Club podcast.

Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.

Show Transcript

I think we should just start with giggles, and I feel great about that. Okay, we're starting with those giggles we just had. Welcome to episode one of the Queer Divorce Club. I'm Tera. We're going to get to know each other a lot through this episode and in the future, but I'm excited to start off the podcast with an interview with my partner, Carlie here.

Say hi, Carlie. Hi, everybody. Hi, Carlie. Right. Yeah, You did good. Um, so I wanted to start off the podcast with Carlie here to interview me, actually to talk about how I started the Queer Divorce Club in the process I had for going through my divorce and where I'm at today, I want to share that with everybody. And I thought you'd be the best person to do that with.

Thank you. I I'm honored. I'm really excited for you. I'm excited to do it. Okay. So I think we should start by having you tell us about give us some background about your divorce and where you are today. Okay. So I was married for 13 years to, um, you know, all this, so I'm just telling you repetitively. But you're right.

Well, you're not telling me. You're telling me that's true. I'm telling everybody else. Okay. I was married for 13 years. I got married and I was 24 to my ex-husband. We had two kids who are now 12 and seven.

We got married pretty much right out of college, and we lived this typical normal life. We had her. We had her two kids. But, I mean, I think we owned, like, three houses together. We did all. We both worked full time jobs. I was busy all the time doing all the things around the time that I had my youngest kid, my ex-husband had a mental health crisis that kind of threw us for a loop in our relationship and put us in this space where we both had to seek some better mental health support and connection with each other.

And during that time, I also started seeking out other community, and that gave me an opportunity to start understanding what I wanted with my life. And a lot of that was a big part of that, was realizing that I was a queer woman during that time. And it was probably, I think around the time the youngest was born.

So around six or seven years ago I realized that and I talked to my ex-husband about it. He was actually pretty understanding of that, and we opened up our marriage to try to understand so I could understand, you know, what I what my sexuality was, what I needed, what it would be like to date women. But we really also tried to stay married for a long time as part of that and and ended up being way too difficult.

We got into toxic patterns that not only were because I was a queer woman, but because of some of the patterns we already had before, and stuff just became more accentuated and difficult. And over time I realized that that was not going to serve me for forever. Um, once I once I met you and three friends, we, you know, I realized that there was this other connection that I could have with, um, with women, especially as I was dating them.

I realized that that connection was different. And then once we met, I realized that there was other ways to have relationships, and it just showed me how toxic my marriage was over time. And that was I don't know if that was either my fault or my acceptance fault. I think we were just in these really bad patterns and we kept doing the same thing over and over and over.

Um, and now two years ago, I decided that I was done and I could tell the whole story about how that happened, this epic story. I'll tell some time about a fence and a smoker. But don't worry, nobody was throwing things. It was just buying one or the other. But that day I kind of just realized that our patterns weren't going to change and I needed to.

I needed to do something else. And I finally had that conversation with him that we needed to be done. And that was really difficult. And tried living together for a while and all the things that led up to today. And we're now a year out from our divorce. And you and I are living together with our three kiddos.

Yeah, like fully on the other side of it. I mean, things change every day, but on the other side of the actual divorce part, it feels like, yeah. Can you describe the process you went through for your divorce? Who decided on the divorce and how did the uncoupling process go for you? Sure. So I was the one that ultimately said it's time to get divorced.

I was at a spot where I couldn't do it anymore. I felt very stuck and very held back, and I knew it was time. We started out trying to figure out the mechanics of the divorce on our own and working through that because of the emotions that were really high during that time, that became practically impossible for us to do.

Um, and we met ex-husband actually first got an attorney in that, and at first I was like, No, we can do this together. But having an attorney helped us out so much because we both were able to have somebody on our side and just kind of walk through the mechanics of it without emotion and that really helped us get through the process.

So we finish it off by using attorneys and, um, fight and finalizing a divorce that way. Yeah. How about the uncoupling process? What was that like? When? So the day that I told them that I wanted to get divorced, we. We started to. He knew it was coming. I think we both knew we were at the end, but neither of us wanted to to end it the whole time.

You know, It was really it felt like it was. It takes a lot of courage to be like, okay, now it's time. And after so long of being together, you're like, We grew up together. We have two kids. We've we've known for houses and we have puppies. And, you know, all of these things that we've done together and we're in that space like it feels really courageous to break that.

And I finally felt like I, I don't know, that moment I told them I was like, took the breath out of me like this. Doesn't it feel great? Is that all? This feels terrifying. It's like I turn from courage to terror instantly. And then we just started muddling, muddling through it. And we lived together for a little while in separate rooms.

And we slowly started to tell the kids. And then it was too emotional for us to live together during that process. So I moved out. And then and now I feel like after we went through the legal process, we're at a point now where we could even start thinking about like, what should our relationship look like? And, you know, how is he involved in the kids lives?

And we do holidays and stuff together, you know, as you know, and I think doing those little things and seeing each other over time has helped us figure out starting to like dabble in what a co-parenting relationship is actually going to look like for real. Want to move forward from now right. Takes time out of evolutions of their sessions beginning, right?

You don't always know. It's supposed to be at first or what it's going to feel like.

So you talked a little bit about the uncoupling process and like, strategically how you separated, but what big emotions came up for you throughout that, throughout the process of uncoupling, but also the process of divorce. And how did you support yourself through those big emotions? Um, I feel like I had the gamut of emotions, but I didn't always know what they were for a lot of the time.

Like I feel like the at the beginning I just kept feeling this like ball of stress. Like I felt like I kept everything on my chest, like, the entire time. Like I couldn't breathe or I just, like, clench my jaw constantly all the time. And I think I was that was the first process of grief, I feel like.

And all of the emotions that we've gone through now throughout the entire divorce was related to how much to that grief and that disconnection from this relationship that I had for a really long time. And I thought, I think sometimes I'm surprised by how like I'm like, oh, I don't like I think about my past life a lot now, but then I'm like, move past it in this space where, oh, it feels really good.

Sometimes I'm in this space like, Oh, everything's really has moved past it. But then all of a sudden I'll be like, Dang, why did that hit me and make me so sad and be like, this random thing that happened with the kids or whatever? And I think at first everything just felt really hard and really sad. And I was exhausted all the time and making the change and pushing through.

And now it feels a lot less like that. But I still do have moments of grief. It kind of like the grief dissipates over time, but it still exists. I think the emotions that I had came from the grief and now that I'm talking about it, the needing to do things for myself and making choices for myself.

And I think that that was the hardest part for me, was knowing that I can make something move for myself and I've done so many things like built businesses and done other podcasts and started nonprofits, and I can do all of that stuff. But making the decision and putting myself out there is making a huge life decision for myself without a partner. Like that was just my choice. Felt like the most the hardest thing I could ever do. And I fought that for a long time, but I felt really brave through it too. It's like every time I made a choice, I felt even braver and move forward and then started getting more confident with how I talked to the kids about it and how we connected around it.

And so over time I was able to trust myself more. But I feel like the grief of losing the relationship and trusting myself were the most emotional and intense parts for me. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. How did you tell your kids about being queer and your divorce, and what were some things that were important to you during that process for your kids and what do you believe you could have done better?

Um, I feel like there's so many things I look back, I feel like I could have done better. But I think now that I look back at what happened and the process that I went through, the times that I connected most with my kids were the times that I was the most honest with them about how I was feeling at a developmental level.

So, um, my youngest was five when we started the divorce process, and I think he didn't understand it at a level that the 12 year old, he was ten at the time, understood it, and I think the five year old knew that it was emotional. He missed like when he first started living apart, he missed his dad a lot.

And, you know, it was sad that one of us wasn't there. He was scared that the other one would get hurt or something when he was like when we were gone. So he was having emotions around that part and around the shifting, but less about the fact that I was a queer woman or the fact that we weren't going to be married forever.

It was like a different dynamic for him developmentally around that. But then the ten year old, he and I have always had this relationship where we talk closely about everything. He asks a lot of really curious questions about things, and I was came out to him a while ago. He knew that I was I explained to him, I think a few years before he got divorced that I was bisexual, which now I would probably consider.

I call myself queer because I would say maybe more pansexual or lesbian leaning. Who knows? It may shift over time, but, um, I explained to him that I was bisexual a while ago when we were married and kind of talked to him about that. And so he knew that I was queer before we came out. But as we got divorced, even even today, he was asking me questions about like I was telling him about the podcast and he's like, What does it mean to be queer?

And what does that mean for you? And how does that you know, he's curious about how what that means for me as a person and who I am at a different way than the seven year old is now. And so I'm just more honest with him now about like, this is how I feel and this is why I did that.

And this is why, you know, being myself is so important and this is why I chose this for us. And I feel like over time, the more I talk to him in that way, he feels a lot better. Yeah. So that seems like I really love that about the relationship that you feel with him. And I loved today.

When he shared that they had field day at school and they were playing tug of war and was boys versus girls, and you said, what about the non-binary kids? And he said, Mom, I can't tell you anything because he knows what's he up to. You're always going to tell them the truth. Yeah, he knows you're always going to challenge him and he respects you for it.

And he liked that. He he loves that about you. And about your relationship. Yeah. Really beautiful. I'm thinking back to you and I in him. We're sitting up late one night, and he was just up late driving his hoverboard around the kitchen. Remember? And he was like, finally started to ask me about it. What did it mean to what did it feel to be gay or decide you're gay?

How do you know that? How did you two come to that decision? Why does that mean you can't be married? Like he was directly asking me all those questions. That's like keeping me on my toes. I got no easy answers, but I guess I keep him on his toes, so he gives it back to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. He's curious. And they trust you? Yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. One of the biggest parts of your divorce journey is that we came out publicly as queer women and a queer relationship to family, friends, and the world. After the divorce. During the divorce? Yeah. Mm hmm. What did that process look like for you? Yeah, that was hard.

It could. Yeah. I feel like the. Yeah, like I was saying earlier, like, trusting self and owning myself. Yeah, We come out every day. Yeah, I feel like I come out all the time to people in various ways. It surprises me how much we have to come out regularly, like two different parents and the different things that kids schools and like all that stuff.

And I think one of the things too, just on this coming out thing is people don't understand when because we had we often like we go to school and it's you and me and ex-husband at school like at a parent teacher conference. And you can see the teacher feels like awkward or weird about it. And we're like, we're here together trying to be here together.

And so I think we're coming on in that way, too. Or they'll see like, I'm with my kid's dad at school and then I'm with you. And then people, you know, people are confused about it, but you don't have to know everything. People must be confused, but everybody else. Yeah. So I say was saying to that that trusting myself and realizing my queerness and owning that was a huge, huge part of after getting divorce and now even doing this podcast, it took me a while to even be like, I'm clear enough to do a queer to create a Queer Divorce podcast.

Like owning that in myself has been really huge, and I think the scenes that you and I have been able to go through that process a little bit together and support each other and figure out, you know, it feels like now we kind of have to define ourselves, but we don't I don't know, I, I don't I want to be me and not a definition, but it's hard to find that place as you have to explain it to everybody, right?

Yeah. And have this whole other, um, uh, relationship with like my dad's side of my family that we haven't really met. And so we have to kind of come out to them, although we did send them Christmas cards with both of us on it. So New Year's cards in New Year's cards. So that's kind of how I think we got to the point.

I know I got to a point where I was like, I've come out to enough people that were close enough to me that mattered the most. The people that we need to have inner circle, you know, close friends setting to build their community, coming out at work, you know, those close things for us. And then finally I was just like, F it, we're telling everybody that we're together because why not?

Why wouldn't we? It's like if we were just a blended family and in a heteronormative space, we would have sent out New Year's cards together. So it's like we're doing it. And we sent out a letter with explaining our family and who are the members of it were are. And we just did it to all the extended family members.

Yeah, a few people said stuff to us about it and really we created a family name and they called us by the family name and you know, we did that kind of stuff, but a lot of people didn't say anything, so I don't know what that means. And they just accept. Yeah, they just accepted it. I'm going to that's what I'm going to think in my mind.

And what has been helpful to you as you're coming out and what have been some ways that it's been easier over time? I think the biggest, the most important thing has been finding other people who are queer and talking them about their their coming out process, about who they are seeing them as regular human beings, you know, being in a community and building up our space that has more queer people around us.

I think seeing other blended families, other families that I mean, all, all queer families really are not traditional because the depends on, you know, how they can make a baby. But really outside of that, like what's that? What creates a traditional marriage? Like we can man women, they can make a baby together, adopt a baby, you know, every queer relationship we know is blended in some way.

Kids are adopted, kids are step kids, you know, whatever it is. And building up that community over time has really helped me be like, I'm normal. I feel normal. It's okay. You know, like kind of taking out some of that socialized homophobia in my own mind or on myself. Um, I think that's been the biggest thing. And therapy on the other side of that is been very important to me.

I have a really good therapist that I trust and feel really good about, and she's helped me walk through that journey too. Yeah, I feel like that leads really well into talking about why you started the Queer Divorce Club and how it's evolving. MM Can you share about that? Yeah, for sure. So, um, the Queer Divorce Club started as a kind of a joke between you and me and one of our other friends that has also getting divorced at the same exact time and is a queer woman.

And we were like, Queer Divorce Club. Yeah, we've done it in over time. It's been like adding people to it while yet we're just sitting around and we're like, Hey, wait a minute, we're all part of the Queer Divorce Club. I love that. Yeah, I love it. And I feel so good when we're in spaces where everybody has been queer and divorced.

It's like this mid-life thing. There's so many different layers, though, to areas that are unique and also shared. Yes. Yeah. And we can laugh. And I think the one the nice thing about building up that group and I have seen over time with our friends who are queer in divorce and we have quite a few of them now, as you're just saying, is that we can see that they all go through hard times and they've all been through the really difficult process of coming out, of getting divorce, of changing the life for their kids and all of them on the other side are here talking and laughing about it.

Right. Like we had friends that sent us their divorce papers so we could see exactly what to do. We had, you know, people that sat down with us to walk through how they structure their their kid time, how they talk to their exes, how, you know, all of these things that we worked out over time, having other people who have been through that felt like felt so good, like scaffold it for us.

It wasn't this like this black hole of randomness. We're like walking down with no direction, right. And having the the Queer Divorce Club really. I mean, it wasn't formal until now. Of course. I have to make everything a club, really formal club, so I get can handle it. I need a button for it. I haven't made buttons while I design, but I haven't either.

Yeah, but I need a button, so I'm putting a button on it, you know? Yeah, but I also feel like what we got out of that community and the connection we got from each other and all the resources we had. I want everybody to be able to access and connect too, and I think it's really important, yeah, to have that having a, a specific support line.

Mm. Would have been if that was our, that was our lifeline. Yeah. It was. You want to grow it and offer resources to others. Mm hmm. Yeah. And we didn't have I think one of the things that makes it a queer divorce different than a heteronormative divorce is that we nobody in our family has gone through it like my mom's course.

My dad's divorced. Obviously, they're together. My dad's been divorced twice. They have friends who are divorced, but it's so different going through it and then coming out after. But I think also, if you're in a queer relationship already and then you get divorced, there's also that huge difference of like people second guess you, you know, you only got you weren't really queer.

You can't stay in a marriage. Marriage doesn't work. You know, this is kind of this all like queer divorce is a new thing for society overall. And it is different. And there's a lot of different emotions that come with it. There's different. There's not as much fam family support that goes with it. There's, you know, people I feel like I don't know if it's because I'm this strong woman, but a lot of people were like, You're getting divorced and you're choosing that you're queer and you're coming out.

That means you know exactly what you want and exactly what you need to do and exactly you know where you're going in your life. And you don't need any support. And I'm like, Fuck that. Yes, I do like nothing. So love and so scared and so confused. And everyone, for some reason the view was that I just knew exactly what I wanted and I was okay and I was going to be fine.

I was like, Wow, I need to switch the idea of that. I feel like over time I'm working on especially like conversations with my mom and saying, you know, I'm really having a hard time here. I need to need your help. Asking for help is something I've had to learn over time. And yeah, having friends in my queer community has helped that a lot.

Yeah. Asking for help and supporting each other and asking for help and getting what we need and supporting each other when we don't have family that's supporting us, you know? Yeah, sort of stuff. Do you think Can I ask you what you feel like the creative work clubs helped you? Well, you know, when we first started to build it and how you felt about that.

Yeah, I feel like I felt really alone before that. And then even just like sitting down with our friend that one time when we coined it that moment as just a, Oh, hey, look at us for the Queer Divorce Club. It was it was like instant community and instant. It wasn't just us going through this. And if it's three of us sitting here, there's others who have experienced something along these lines, or at least a part of it.

So it just felt very affirming and yeah, helpful. Yeah, I love it. Everybody should be in the Queer Divorce Club. Well, everybody who's queer and divorced should be here. And of course, you are welcome. Yes. Yes. I think one of the things that if you're not divorced and you're queer, you're thinking about divorce. Yeah. Or if you're divorced for not sure you're queer.

Yeah. Any any along the lines of that structure. Yes, I agree. I think that one of the things that we when we started talking about it to publicly or with our friends and our community open about sharing like, oh, you're divorce and you're queer, other people come out of the woodwork and they're like, I'm queer and I think I'm getting divorced.

What should I do? I don't know why these people have all high pitched voices, but they do. They everybody on the Internet talks like that. They do it every they do. Yeah. Yeah. Do you help me figure this out? But it's funny because we do keep running in. We run into people and they do start asking. And I feel like showing up and showing out like that, we're divorced and we're okay.

As hard as it was and talking about the hard and it just makes, it makes me feel better and makes everybody else feel like they can connect with it. And I like that. Showing up, showing out. Did you make that up this year? You know, like it maybe show up, show how somebody is going to Google it and be like, yeah, you got it from this from well, you better copyright that now I better hurry up the next porn tank to my unicorn guts T-shirt.

Yeah. Isn't enough to show up Show out, show up, Show up. It's going to be in the merch now that people. All right, we just got one more question. What do you think is the most important thing for your listeners to keep in mind throughout their divorce and as they're rebuilding? MM I've been I put some notes in the notes here to think about what to say, and I stopped putting notes in here because I don't I'm struggling to figure out like what is the most important thing.

But I think when I, no matter what iteration I came up with is the most important thing is to learn how to trust yourself through it and your intuition. And that is hard is it is the decision that you're making. If it feels like the right decision to you, if that if, if you're split between two decisions and then one road, you're feeling like I'm stuck or stress, or you're feeling that heaviness on your chest or like I was grinding my teeth or like in the space or I just didn't feel good.

But the other one, even for a second, it felt like a fresh breath of fresh air. Like if I wasn't divorced, I should. It was recording nonstop. And then I went to sleep and went to sleep. Okay. Okay. I'm sure you still got it. We've only been talking for 35 minutes. Mm. Yeah, that's okay. Um, shows answer the question again.

I was in the middle of it. Can you ask me again? Yes. So one more question, Tera, but what do you think is the most important thing for your listeners to keep in mind throughout their divorce and as they are rebuilding? So I've been thinking about this question quite a bit in different iterations of what I might say on the podcast.

It feels like I have to say this epic thing, but when I come, when it comes down to it, as I have explored what I think is the most important thing, I keep coming back to trusting myself and trusting yourself throughout the process and finding finding a way to understand and trust your intuition throughout that. And I think that there's there's many times throughout the process where I can be like, there's two roads, I can go, I can stay living with my ex-husband right now and figure out how to do this, or I can move out.

And, you know, as hard as it was to move out of the kids out and make that decision, even when I was thinking about living still with my ex-husband, I was like feeling so unsettled about it, you know, the heaviness on my chest, the teeth grinding. Like now, even as I talk about it, I can feel that feeling in my chest.

But then I'm like, moving out. It feels like this lightness all of a sudden, even if I just say that out loud, it's wild. Once I started to try to trust my body and feel those feelings inside. And then as I started trusting myself, as hard as those choices were, I kept being able to do that more So over time, I was able to build up the courage I needed and the information I needed to make the right decisions.

And I cried a lot. That doesn't mean that it was easy. Has spent so many times crying in like black holes, like sitting in the dark in my room, like in a bottle or on the couch. You've witnessed many times who were like, I can't do this anymore. I'm stuck in this spot. And then I would let the emotion out, trust that I'm heading in the right direction and try again the next day.

And there is I feel like they used to the times where that used to happen a lot and now it's like spreading out over time, you know, it gets easier and easier and sometimes it's still difficult and things pop up. Like I was talking about earlier. But the more I trust myself, the more I begin to understand how my intuition is and how the emotions work in my body, the better I feel over time and that I'm making the right choice and heading in the right direction.

Yeah. Can I add to that a little bit? Yeah. I feel like if you're not at a place yet where you are fully trusting yourself, I feel like asking for help to trust yourself is also okay. But you got to ask the people who are going to affirm to trust yourself. You're not. Don't ask them, Should I get divorced?

Right. You know in your heart what you need to ask people to affirm that feeling that you're not quite sure, that you have to affirm that you know what you need. Yes. Yeah. You have to firm. Yeah. Affirm to trust yourself. Mm hmm. Yeah. No, that's really good. I think there is that there is that space. When you're learning to trust, you have to prove yourself for the first time that you need somebody to be like, no, it's okay.

You got it. You got the answer. You know you're doing. Yeah. And for me, it was my therapist or, you know, we do that for each other sometimes or a close friend, and it's a very important. Yeah. You know those people the. Yeah. Yeah. Not make the decision for you but tell you you're doing it. And I think trust yourself is pretty powerful.

So I think that is a pretty epic thing. Trust yourself, show up, show out side. Well, you got all kinds of mantras for a marriage. Yes. Perfect is for real, though. I don't know. Maybe it's because we're women. Maybe it's because I grew up a people pleaser. Maybe it's because I can think of all these reasons why I didn't trust myself and lost my intuition.

But it feels so fucking hard to do at first like it does. Yes. So hard. Yeah, it does. Because you're choosing yourself. Because you're choosing. I mean, there's there's a lot of people who value being convenient as a character trait. Yeah. So busting through some of those patterns and how you grew up and everybody is like us. Some people do trust themselves.

I know really easily. Where are you to me? Are you people that trust you? So you go, Oh yeah, there you go. Okay. Episode one Yeah. Trust themselves, I think. Yeah. And who thinks that this part of this episode is ridiculous, right? Well, I thought that they. They weren't born that way. Right, though. Is there somebody that was born that way at and I'll ask Lady Gaga.

That's too maybe Lady Gaga. No. She talks about how she doesn't trust herself. Doesn't she have something called born this? She absolutely does. Yeah, for sure. But but I don't I was just thinking maybe she is does trust itself, but I don't even think she does. I don't know. I think think about all these famous people that like Oprah talks about not trusting yourself or being in that spot where she had to figure it out for a while.

And I just I don't know. It's just Oprah's like the one. If she doesn't and who does? I feel like if you know that you trust yourself, you had to at one point and not that about yourself. So it was like you had to have this for her. Yeah. At some point I took off.

You're right. At some point, there has to be a moment where you're like, I do trust myself. Now. Yeah. Okay. We're seeking you out. People who are more confident than Oprah was when she first said, Why are you going to start there? I know that's. Let's start with you. If you trust yourself now, go. Don't know how to.

Do you know how to do it? Yeah. I feel like though I am moving towards a space where I trust myself more and more, but I definitely consistently question myself on a regular basis. But the more I'm like, okay, that question was just an anxiety or just a worry or just an emotion connecting that just I shouldn't say just, but it was an emotion connected to it, something that triggered you or whatever.

Then I can start piecing apart like the actual trust and intuition versus anxiety and grief and whatever emotions are in there. I think this is a great start to your podcast. I think so. Thanks for helping me to serve it. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Oh, we have a cat knocking at the door, so we better end the podcast there.

We're going to end enter that. I'm going to keep it. Okay. Thank you so much, Carlie, for starting the podcast with me.