Episode 2: Devon Gibby, Gay Dad Co-Parenting
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club podcast, Tera talks with Devon Gibby. Devon, a proud gay dad, takes us on a transformative journey that began a decade ago when he courageously started blogging about his life as a closeted Mormon married to a woman. In this deeply personal episode, Devon shares his experiences of navigating the complexities of faith, sexuality, and divorce, ultimately emerging as a passionate advocate for co-parenting. Through his Instagram account, Devon invites us into his world, offering an authentic and relatable glimpse into the joys and challenges of raising his two sons. Join us as we celebrate Devon's unwavering dedication to family and his profound message of love, acceptance, and co-parenting. Tune in now and embark on a powerful journey of self-discovery and resilience.
Follow Devon on Instagram @dadndaddies.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Show Transcript
00:00:02:15 - 00:00:25:07
Devon, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club podcast. I'm so happy to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and spill my story. I'm excited to hear about it. To get us started, can you give us a little bit of a background on your story? Where where are you at in the divorce process and where are you at today?
00:00:25:09 - 00:01:16:17
Okay. Well, I am about eight years post divorce, so very much threw it at a very good place with co-parenting with my ex-wife as far as my background. I grew up the fifth of six kids in a farm in Idaho and they currently live in Salt Lake City, Utah. Now, I have two sons of my own and I grew up a in the Mormon faith that had a big part of my upbringing and and kind of what shaped me and a big part of my marriage.
00:01:16:17 - 00:01:46:05
That was a big reason why I ended up in a mixed orientation marriage. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm now I'm a very out, openly gay man and still raising my two sons with my ex-wife. I'm excited to hear more about the eight years of practice. It feels like you're an expert to me who's only a year and a half out because so I feel like others who are listening are going to be like, just getting started.
00:01:46:05 - 00:02:08:02
And so that will be great to hear from somebody who's been in it for so long. Yeah, those for a few years can feel very intense and heavy. So I'm here to tell you that it does get better and you just get better as you as you go along with practice and. All right, we'll practice. We will do.
00:02:08:04 - 00:02:34:11
You don't have a choice, especially when you have kids, you know, that may put you in it and put you in it later. So part of your process, part of your story, sorry, not your process. You don't have to talk in technical terms anymore. So part of your story is coming out and coming out through your divorce. And you've talked about it in social media to where you were, you know, came out to your weight.
00:02:34:11 - 00:03:06:05
First. Can you talk a little bit about how coming out came, you know, how you went through that process and how your story evolved over time? Yeah, for some people, coming out is very much an event. For me, it was a long, drawn out process and it was just a kind of a slow, like growing of awareness in who I am and and what that means.
00:03:06:05 - 00:03:40:04
And in trying to make sense of it, I, I mean, I can say that I was aware that I was attracted to guys from a young age, but with my religious upbringing, I saw it more as a sin to be overcome rather than any sort of identity. And so just and also having having grown up in that faith, I had no way of really talking about my attraction to men or acting on it.
00:03:40:04 - 00:04:10:17
You know, I very much kept to the faith and and it really wasn't until after I was married that I had to start taking a hard look at my sexuality. And and the first person that came out was was one of my best friends. He had actually introduced me to my wife. And I just told him, I said, I think I might be I might have same sex attraction as I call it.
00:04:10:19 - 00:04:39:18
And and then later on, I went out. They came out to my my bishop, one of my church leaders, just a few weeks into marriage, and he said, well, it's a good thing you're married now. And that was kind of the attitude was that like as long as I, you know, had had found a good woman that was righteous and would stick by me like I was going to be just fine, but I didn't feel like I was going to be just fine.
00:04:39:18 - 00:05:30:13
It marriage felt very like almost like I had opened a door and started walking into a room and realized I was in the wrong room and it was about six weeks after, after my marriage that I finally kind of worked up the nerve to talk to my wife about it. So that began a lot of a big long process, or in the next few years of our marriage, of discussing my sexuality, trying to make sense of it, and eventually starting to identify with it more as as who I am and an unchanging part of me and a part of me that I could embrace.
00:05:30:15 - 00:05:57:03
Do you think throughout those few years was there a moment where you were finally were like decided that you can't you could no longer be in a heterosexual marriage and needed to find that space? Was it a moment or was it a process that you talk through with your ex-wife and came to that decision? I mean, it was kind of a slow flow of growing of awareness.
00:05:57:05 - 00:06:50:16
I definitely wanted to do everything I could to to make our situation work for both of us. I did. I, I took marriage very seriously. And, you know, with my religious upbringing, it divorces. Definitely not a good thing. Definitely not something I ever wanted. And so, yeah, I, I did my best at first to kind of like, just avoid anything that would cause me to be attracted to guys and that ultimately led me to being very, very much not myself, very secluded, kind of living in fear of myself and yeah, the depression sunk in really hard.
00:06:50:17 - 00:07:27:01
And so eventually I realized I did have to find a way to embrace who I am rather than try to mask it. And I began looking for communities, well, some support and community. I found a community of other Mormon men who were gay but married to women. I tried to see, you know, if their situation could work for for me and my wife.
00:07:27:03 - 00:08:10:09
It was clear to me after just just a few months in this organization that none of these people were really thriving or happy. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I just I couldn't see myself long term ever making that, you know, a sustainable thing. It it took some time to come to that realization. But when I did, things began to fall into place and eventually, yeah, we did decide that we would be better off divorced and as co-parents rather than rather than trying to make our marriage work and to force it to work.
00:08:10:11 - 00:08:29:14
Yeah, that takes as I'm listening, all I can think of is that takes so much courage to get through that space where you're consistently told you're not the right thing, you're not doing the right thing. Even seeking out a community where there's others like you in wanting to be different from them. And that's really outstanding to to be able to be in that space.
00:08:29:16 - 00:08:59:04
I know you're dedicated now to living your authentic life. Do you think having the courage to do that and move through that time helped you embrace that about yourself? For sure, Yeah. It I mean, even before I had, you know, contemplated separating my wife here, I was already challenging kind of the status quo of of, you know, other people who are supposedly like me.
00:08:59:06 - 00:09:30:16
And so, yeah, it did prepare me to eventually come out to everyone in my life. But yeah, it was it was really scary and it took a lot of courage to do. I did have plenty of support, thankfully, because a about ten years ago I started blogging back when Blogger was a thing. And through that I was able to meet some other men who were gay and Mormon and living in my area.
00:09:30:16 - 00:10:02:09
And we kind of supported started our own little support group. And so I had friends. I had people who I could lean on and and gain emotional and and other kind of support from them as I process through all of this. And it was that was really important to my my own like coming into my queer identity was, was having other other gay people who who shared my same values and beliefs.
00:10:02:11 - 00:10:22:11
There alongside me. Yeah, I think that's essential for all of us as we, you know, live in this space. That's not the typical or norm. You need to have this community friends connection to be able to build off of that. You know, I don't know. Do you know anybody who has done it alone? I don't know. We don't hear those stories, you know, you do know.
00:10:22:11 - 00:10:51:02
And that's amazing. People would be they just, you know, for for some people, especially men in my similar situation, a lot of them, they have this like major realization and they keep it inside for years. And then all of a sudden they can't handle it anymore and they just like rip off the Band-Aid. So they tell their wife to move out immediately and they don't know a single other gay person.
00:10:51:04 - 00:11:13:05
Yeah, I, I think that takes guts to like, huh? I don't know how to do that because I definitely needed other people around me in order to fill space and and confident enough that I could do it. So, yeah, I mean, there's different ways to go about it. I think it takes courage both ways. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
00:11:13:07 - 00:11:40:09
Um, how did you, as you went through the process came out, how did you come out to your kids? How did that conversation go? And how do you talk to them about it today? Well, my kids were let's see, they were two and three when we split up. So they actually don't have any memories of what it was like to live with both mom and dad.
00:11:40:11 - 00:12:13:20
So in their mind, I've just always been the gay dad. And it's not it's not it's not like those who have older children and it's a big shock for them. I think that would definitely be a challenge coming out to kids at that age. If they've seen it. And plenty of other dads. Thankfully for me, mine, like I said, were young and they've just always been around me and other gay men.
00:12:13:20 - 00:12:44:17
And it's it's normal to them. There is a book so not long after I started dating my first boyfriend, I got a book called Daddy's Roommate, and it's like I was looking around at the time, and this was ten years ago. So there wasn't nearly the robust amount of, like queer or children's literature like we do now. Like now there's so much and it's and it's amazing and I love it.
00:12:44:19 - 00:13:21:02
But at that time I was looking around. I'm like, there's really not a lot. And this book was probably written in like the eighties and it had like some really cheesy stereotypes of gay men, like, like mustaches and I'm working shirtless in the garden. It was just kind of funny, but like, it was just kind of detailing, kind of the life of this kid who lived with his mom part of the week and his his dad on the weekend and what his relationship was like with with his dad's roommate.
00:13:21:04 - 00:13:50:05
Like, you never call him his boyfriend. They just called him Daddy's roommate. But it showed that they slept in the same bed together and it showed that they they like to sing together at the piano and go shopping together. Kind of a a real cute book. But but that's what I started reading my kids to help them kind of identify and relate to to to a children's book that is very similar to what their own life was turning into.
00:13:50:07 - 00:14:14:10
Yeah. Books and stories are essential to kids, but us to get to talking about the community. Mom, you have everybody around you kids need that so badly. Yeah, I have a I have a son on both sides of the age spectrum, a 12 year old and a seven year old. And I think for me coming out to I could see there's a huge difference between how my five year old at the time took it, how my ten year old at the time took it in their understanding.
00:14:14:10 - 00:14:30:18
And one thing I know with older kids that I've leaned on a little bit is that when questions come up, I just have a very honest conversation with my ten year old about it. My seven year old doesn't ask me about it. You write it at the younger age. He, you know, he has memories of us living together.
00:14:30:18 - 00:14:52:10
But he the transition felt more normal for him, you know, when I was with my ex-husband. But today he doesn't really ask questions. But my pre-teen has all the questions and he's always asking about them. So I'm always looking for, you know, stories and ways to connect with them, but being honest with them about how I'm feeling and what's happening is really felt like the best way to move forward.
00:14:52:12 - 00:15:28:13
And that's also now living that authentic life, right. How do you think that that Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just saying that's that's the best thing you can do is just be honest. And as my kids have gotten older, they've you know, they've had little questions here and there about like the dynamic of my relationship with their mom when we were married and and just kind of little aspects of my life as a gay man and I've always Yeah, just tried to be straightforward and honest with them of course, like at their age appropriate level, right?
00:15:28:14 - 00:15:54:17
Yes, absolutely. But there's no reason why I have to hide any part of who I am with them. Yeah, sure, Sure. Can you describe now that your your co-parenting with your ex-wife, what does that look like? How you know, some of the technical things Are you co-parenting? She your ex-wife is married again. Now, do the three of you co-parent together?
00:15:54:19 - 00:16:34:23
I mean, a bit, yeah. So she has remarried and he's he's a good guy. He actually coaches my my son's soccer team. He's also a dad. He's got two kids from his previous marriage. And and then with my ex-wife, they have a daughter together. But, yeah, it's as far as the technical side of things, a lot of the the back and forth is is mostly just with me and her resolved and and occasionally he he helps out here and there.
00:16:34:23 - 00:17:03:16
But for the most part he leaves that to her to, to work with me and to talk things through a lot of it's just logistics really at this point. So much of the the discussing values and and other things that that had to be established early on in the co-parenting relationship. And we can get to to where there's been conflicts there.
00:17:03:16 - 00:17:35:18
But but yeah a lot of it is just you know we'll have a a call up maybe once a month or so just to go over plans and and and if things need to be rearranged as far as scheduling like we're we're pretty flexible. We want to prioritize our kids and because he's got a co-parenting schedule with his ex-wife it it can be a little tricky to navigate when there are three families involved.
00:17:35:20 - 00:17:55:16
And so we want to ensure that that my kids can have time with their step siblings. So I'm flexible with if it's a weekend that I'm supposed to have them and and it's their only chance to be with their step brothers. So then I'm I'm happy to change my weekend around. And she's also just as flexible as me.
00:17:55:16 - 00:18:23:13
I, I have a kind of irregular work schedule and sometimes I'm traveling and she's happy to take the boys on on times when I need her, too. So it's a give and take and it's a lot of compromising, but it's it's also just being understanding and considerate of each other. Yeah. It turns into sort of into this business space.
00:18:23:13 - 00:18:49:23
Right. And if you can be flexible and manage logistics, that's where you hope things can flow so well. It sounds like you have that done that. I mean, yeah, a lot of it is just having a shared Google calendar so we can see. Yep, we're expecting things and and she's she's better about remembering all of the kids school events and so I often have to text and be like, what time is this?
00:18:50:01 - 00:19:21:01
Where is this? And and she's pretty patient with me but yeah, yeah, it's, it's just a lot of little micro interactions, little text messages here, little calls here. Or if we're both at a soccer game, we just catch up on, on what we need to resolve. But for the most part, like we've gotten to a good place now where there's very few conflicts.
00:19:21:03 - 00:19:48:21
And if we do have a conflict, we, we hear each other out and and we try to remove our emotions from the situation because things can get pretty tense, Rick, if if you're not careful. Yeah. How have you been able to what's worked for you in setting boundaries around value discussions? I know for me with my ex-husband, there's been times where I've been like, Nope, don't go there.
00:19:48:23 - 00:20:07:20
You know, stopping myself by asking for something or moving myself out of the space where how we used to act when we were married, you know, that type of thing, and then learned over time. But what's helped you been able to stay, you know, stay with those boundaries and keep it more, you know, less emotional? It's been a learning process.
00:20:08:01 - 00:20:33:12
I would say when we first divorced, we had a fairly amicable divorce because, I mean, I was gay and that wasn't going away. And, you know, as hard as it was for her being a very active Mormon and and knowing that she wanted to stay that way, you know, we both realized that there were changes that we couldn't we couldn't make.
00:20:33:12 - 00:20:57:04
And so, yeah, it was a pretty amicable divorce. But because of that, our first year or so, we were quite close, I would say close friends, even where she would talk to me about her dates, she would, you know, I would swipe on Tinder to show her what my options were. So like that. And, and well, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:20:57:06 - 00:21:17:17
I think that kind of closeness may have triggered some some like strong emotional feelings, not necessarily jealousy, but maybe feeling like we had some type of say over how each of us are living our lives.
00:21:17:19 - 00:21:47:06
And eventually, yeah, we kind of had to have a a bit of a schism from that way of how we were living. And it it taught us to, you know, where exactly where my role is and where her role is. And, and when it comes to her life and the way that she chooses to live and and the things that she does with her time with the boys like I don't have a say over.
00:21:47:08 - 00:22:19:08
And she also learned to stop trying to to influence me in the way I was living, you know, when it came to the overall well-being of the children, certainly she would have things to say. And and I had my own opinions, but but it got it got pretty clear where those boundaries were. And I wouldn't say that we're like close friends anymore, but I would say that we are friendly and and compassionate and caring and we have a good working relationship.
00:22:19:08 - 00:22:38:17
And I think that is more important than than being close friends. Yeah. Sounds like it really works well for you. And I'm just thinking about all the transitions, you know, as you transition to separate lives. But then also her getting remarried or other people that are in your life if you're dating or or whatever, that's another transition, right?
00:22:38:17 - 00:23:29:09
That you're like, this person's values are in there now, too. And I got to continue working over time to kind of transition the relationship because you always have it. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And I've been to a couple of partners since I've come out and it's always been an adjustment and I think it's gotten easier as time has gone on for her to embrace whoever I'm with or just to accept, you know, them and, and yeah, I, I think there's still plenty to go like plenty of distance to cover as far as integrating some of the people a day into the whole co-parenting relationship.
00:23:29:09 - 00:24:05:04
I think gay men sometimes aren't as comfortable with parenting perhaps as women are. Right? So that's that's a challenge for me and and for whomever. A date. But but yeah, I would say it's it's only gotten easier and better as we come up. That's good. When you think back over the last eight years, what do you feel like are some of the greatest successes you've had where you've seen your kids really thriving in your relationship with your your ex really in a good spot?
00:24:05:06 - 00:24:44:20
It's hard to say whether there's anything like massive. Yeah, that's more like it's more like a conglomeration of little things like us being able to sit next to each other and chat a soccer game, us being able to take pictures of each other with the kids after, you know, a school concert, us being able to make adjustments to our schedule, you know, her asking me if I can take the kids for an extra weekend so that she can help her ailing father.
00:24:44:22 - 00:25:11:16
Little things like that are are not huge, but I think they add up over time. And I think that that is what is making our co-parenting relationship a big success so far. Thank you for sharing that. So if the little successes over time add up to be strong, consistent relationship, that's that's great. Yeah. I think when I first got divorced, I was thinking the same thing.
00:25:11:16 - 00:25:29:13
Like we there's some things that we do. Like we had my oldest son's birthday last week and all of us were in the same space and my current partner and her ex-husband and, and being able to do that feels like a big thing. But it also is like, okay, this is work we've done over the last two years to make it here.
00:25:29:13 - 00:25:53:11
And it, you know, it feels good that that can build up over time and the kids can have the birthday that they that they want to have and need to have. Yeah. And and really I think the fact that we've been able to keep the focus of our co-parenting on our kids and bettering their lives is is just evidence of of it working out.
00:25:53:13 - 00:26:18:14
Kudos to you both. That's amazing to be able to get into that situation that everybody wants to. And so she's she's definitely been a a big, big part of making it work. Yeah. That feels so good. Not everybody is able to be in that space. And so but it's good to be able to know that it can exist for people that are working every if everybody's working towards the same goals.
00:26:18:16 - 00:26:45:09
Yeah, all of this co-parenting work, all the work that you have to do, you know, you're dating, have these other relationships. It feels like divorce just adds on that and it takes a lot more energy no matter how long you've been. So what do you do for yourself to stay healthy and strong as a parent? Um, yeah. This is something I had to learn early on.
00:26:45:11 - 00:27:10:00
I when I was first divorced, I mean, I had I was married to a woman who cooked almost all my meals, and it was a very traditional marriage. And as lucky as I was, you know, I coming out of that, I had a lot to learn. I mean, I had always been involved as a dad as far as like changing the diapers and taking care of the kids and that sort of thing.
00:27:10:00 - 00:27:40:07
But when it came to just like fulfilling my own basic needs of like eating and, and, you know, taking care of like my laundry and that sort of thing, like I, I feel like I had a lot like I got married quite young, so I didn't really have much of a bachelor experience to go off of. So it took me a while to learn how to take care of just myself and my basic needs.
00:27:40:09 - 00:28:10:03
I mean, out there early on in my my experience as a dad, I was just like the the dollar menu. Dad constantly like it's food, you know, grilled cheese in case it is sort of salty stuff. And it wasn't healthy for me. And, and, and while I was trying my best to, you know, be fit by going to the gym, there's a lot of there's a lot of pressure on gay men to to have a certain volume.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:31:08
I wasn't healthy because I wasn't taking care of my body. And so I had to learn to cook. I had to learn how to cook nutritious meals for me and my kids. I had to learn to do other just basic household chores and necessities that that she had taken care of because she was a stay at home mom.
00:28:31:08 - 00:29:19:14
And I was and I was the breadwinner. So shifting into that role, I had a lot to learn and but yeah, and now I now I eat a lot healthier. I, I work out regularly. I also take time to, to be myself. And if that's, you know, spending a weekend with friends when I don't have the boys or going on a trip to you know, they explore the world and other parts of myself like that, that is also helped me a lot so that when I do have my kids, I am recharged and I can be a lot more present with them.
00:29:19:16 - 00:29:54:24
And I've also done a lot of traveling with my boys. We've gone to several national parks together, we've visited several cities and all over the U.S. and it's it's really helped our relationship. And I hope to be able to offer them a greater perspective than what they're getting in rural Utah. Yeah, And so that is that has helped not only me to be well rounded and healthy, but it's it's helped my kids as well.
00:29:55:01 - 00:30:14:00
So you're building an intentional things that hit on your values and, you know, taking the learning curve to build those out for yourself. Yeah. I think when we're in a marriage to rebuild them out, especially when we're young with our partner. And so now you have to figure out, you know, how to do that on your own and sounds like you're doing that.
00:30:14:02 - 00:30:58:20
It was hard. Yeah. And I'm 80, so like being like, just staying organized and, and handling just all the day to day tasks is, is even more challenging for me, I feel like. But I've learned a lot and have grown a lot. It's awesome. Can you tell me? And as we leave, I have one more question we've talked about a lot but what is when you think back through this whole process and where you're at now, what do you think is one of the most important things that our listeners need to keep in mind as they go through their divorce and as they're they're rebuilding their life post-divorce?
00:30:58:22 - 00:31:26:07
Oh, that that is a really good question. I think a lot of times when people are going through a divorce, it's really easy to feel guilty, especially if you're the queer one. And the marriage is ending because you know, for that excuse me, because your queerness is, you know, the conflict in the marriage or for other reasons as well.
00:31:26:07 - 00:31:58:15
I mean, it's easy to feel guilty and to accept less in the maybe it's a you're accepting less in the divorce proceedings than you deserve or you're accepting less time than you deserve. Don't you devalue yourself and don't and don't allow yourself to be shamed, especially by so me coming from a religious background and and then leaving that behind.
00:31:58:17 - 00:32:34:22
I felt a lot of religious shame coming out of my divorce. And yeah, it definitely weighed on me and, and I and I accepted less than I, I should have as far as time, as far as different stipulations in our divorce decree. And I and I would encourage everyone to not to devalue yourself that you are worthy of being a parent just as much as anyone.
00:32:34:24 - 00:33:08:17
And your queerness does not make you less of a parent and to stick true to your values. And and sometimes it does take time to figure out exactly what your values are, especially when you're like me. I was coming from a very religious background to now I'm not religious at all, but figure out your values and stay true to them and know that you can be an excellent parent.
00:33:08:19 - 00:33:39:01
And also, it's it's really easy to get caught up on what the other parent is doing with their time or, you know, there's a lot of jealousy that can get involved. Just focus on you, you know, focus on what makes you happy and what makes you healthy. And and when you focus on you and and on building a whole life for yourself and for your kids, like that's going to make things a much, much better for your kids.
00:33:39:03 - 00:34:23:06
If you can be a strong, well-rounded person by yourself, and then you're going to be able to offer a lot more to your kids and that does take time and and be patient with yourself because you're not going to have it as soon as you move out. Yeah, it's it's time to rebuild an entire life. And so be patient with yourself and and know that, you know, all you can do is your best and and even if, like, even if the kids are still wearing pajamas at five in the afternoon and, you know, they've just eaten chicken nuggets that day, like at least they have, you know, a roof over their head and food in
00:34:23:06 - 00:34:51:05
their stomachs, like just do your best and that's all you can do. That's so such great, great advice as I think as you're saying that I'm thinking through like, how do you get around the hardest days on those days when you feel like you're not going to make it or you're exhausted, like you said, the chicken nugget days, How do you what do you do to remind yourself at the end of the day that you're in a good spot?
00:34:51:07 - 00:35:33:03
This is for you. You don't need to feel guilty. You know what helps you get through that? Just remember that you are you are exactly the parent that you would be for your kids, that your kids need. And they, as long as you are, you know, providing for their basic needs and you're you're doing your best to be present even on those rough days like you are what they need and and you are their person and and just embrace who you are.
00:35:33:05 - 00:36:02:22
Because as you as you live authentically, embrace, embrace who you are, your kids will notice that and see that and that there's so much that they can learn from you. And you do that so good. I feel like we should leave. On that note, you are the parent that your kids need you to be, and that's okay to embrace that and embrace who you are and you living your authentic life is the model that your kids need to to live their own authentic life.
00:36:02:22 - 00:36:42:06
Right as they grow up, as they become adults. That's a really good thing for us all to remember. Yeah. For me, one of the hardest things when coming out was feeling like I was kind of ruining this perfect family that I had worked so hard to build. But I. I realized that I started asking myself, like, what kind of overall arching, overarching lesson do I want my kids to take away from me?
00:36:42:08 - 00:37:19:00
Is it one of conforming to societal standards and expectations, or, you know, the way that I was raised, or is it one of living truthfully and authentic, authentically? And then and then that was really what drove me to my decision to live the way that I do now is is I want my kids to have an example of someone who lives without centricity and isn't afraid to embrace who they really are.
00:37:19:02 - 00:37:36:24
That a good spot to be in. It feels so good to be in that spot, doesn't it? To be open, to be with your kids, to have moved through it. That's you've done it. You're there. I mean, we always evolving, but it's good. It's awesome to feel like in that spot. It's really it is awesome. The challenges are still there.
00:37:36:24 - 00:38:04:03
There's always going to be challenges. Yeah, there's always hard days. There's still chicken nugget days, but always growing, always learning and doing my best to improve. And I've got amazing kids. I'm super lucky. They are. They are really my my rock and what keeps me going and what keeps me grounded. So I'm I'm super grateful to be a dad and I love it.
00:38:04:05 - 00:38:25:08
It's awesome. I appreciate you so much taking the time to share your experiences with our listeners and your story with us being one of my first guests on the podcast. I thank you so much for joining us and for being on the podcast today. I appreciate your reaching out and involving me. It's it's a pleasure to be involved.
00:38:25:08 - 00:38:56:19
Thank you. And thank you for what you're doing to help others. I, I know I can certainly touch a lot of people, so thank you. Thank you so much. As I want to say for our listeners, if you want to find Devon on Instagram, he's daddy and Daddy's daddy. I s I'll put that in the show notes on the website as well so you can find them on social and follow a story my dad and daddy and daddies.
00:38:56:21 - 00:39:11:03
And there's plenty of daddies in my life and us. And so find them on Instagram and follow the story. And thank you so much again for being with us today. Thank you so much.