Episode 11: Cariann Moore, Navigating the Messy Middle

In this episode, Tera has the privilege of connecting with the wonderful Cariann Moore as she bravely shares her journey through the intricate phase following her divorce, often referred to as the "messy middle." Through her vulnerability, Cariann opens up about her personal experience during this challenging period and offers profound insights into her healing process. We delve into the strategies she employed to navigate the messy middle during the post-divorce rebuilding stage and discuss how others can find their own paths to healing.

The "messy middle" is a shared experience after divorce, and Cariann's wisdom provides invaluable guidance on managing its complexities. While there's no one-size-fits-all approach, I hope that by listening to her story, you'll grant yourself the grace needed for your own healing journey.

Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.

Cariann in a black shirt with a white polka dot button down underneath.

Cariann Moore

Cariann Moore is an established global marketing and communications professional. With a proven track record in dynamic, multicultural settings, Cariann thrives in fast-paced environments. She has spearheaded groundbreaking LGBTQIA+ and Women’s Employee Resource Groups as part of corporate diversity and sustainability efforts.

Cariann's impressive career spans over 20 years, encompassing both non-profit and for-profit sectors. Holding a bachelor's degree in political science from the esteemed University of Florida, she proudly supports her alma mater as a dedicated Gator fan and volunteer.

In her spare time, Cariann also acts as an admin for an online support group for late-blooming queer women and non-binary folx and is passionate about helping others navigate their own coming-out journeys. She believes in finding joy in the little things - a perfect cup of coffee, a centering yoga session, watching the sunrise on the beach, and everything pumpkin spice.

With her partner Drew, their two kids, and five dogs, Cariann calls Fort Lauderdale home.

You can find Cariann online at www.linkedin.com/in/cariannmoore


Show Transcript

Hi, Cariann, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to hear your story today, and I thank you so much for sharing it with our listeners. Let's happy to be here. Can you start us off by giving us a little bit of a glimpse of the history of your own history with divorce and where you're at today?

Yeah, sure. So I've been divorced almost eight years now, or eight years. I don't know. At some point I stopped. Really tracking. It's been about eight years. And today I lived with my partner. We've been together a little over two years. They have two kids. So now I'm a stepmom to a 13 year old girl and a 16 year old boy.

So I came into like, poof, Freddie Ma family. Yeah. . And ready ma dog family too. So I. Still have my old man, his name is Bruno, and then I came into a house with not [00:01:00] one, not two, but four chihuahuas. So two adults, two kids, five dogs. It's crazy here. Sounds like wonderful chaos. I'm sure it's wonderful chaos.

You know, during the.

At some point in the future it'd be awesome to talk about step parenting and what that's like. But today I wanna talk about your story more and think about the, the messy middle. You know, that spot where you mentioned to me like, what should we talk about? And you thought that that was the important, the most important part of your journey to share with everybody.

So can you describe for the listeners what is the messy middle to you? Yeah, so for me so I got divorced in about 2015. And right at about the same time Brene Brown had released her book Rising Strong and I. Known kind of about her. Previously I had watched some Ted Talks and had read some other books, but that book really resounded with [00:02:00] me.

And, and you know, that term, messy middle the way that I use it came from her, which is she has this great quote where she talks about, it's that, Point where you're in your journey, you're kind of in the dark and you know you're too far out to come back but not close enough yet to see the light. So to me, that messy middle is that point of no return.

And for me, one of the big things that I really learned about in my entire journey is that I call it like I know it, like I know my name. Like that those things that you just know are like embedded in you, you embody them. And for me it was getting to that point in my journey where I knew. That I couldn't go back to my former life.

There was no amount of like anything that was gonna rebuild it, and it was a [00:03:00] life that I. Perfectly curated. . I was a box checker, right? . Like met the boy, you know, went to the, graduated from the high school, went to the right college, met the right boy who had lots of potential, and we get married and you know, fast forward and we have the house with literally a white picket fence.

And the nice cars and trips to Europe and Africa and all of these things, and I perfectly curated this life that didn't fit. Yeah, like there was a point in time where I was like literally head on my desk in my office at the time, sobbing hysterically because I had built this life, I had this job, I had this marriage, you know, everything was on paper, looked great.

And none of it fit. And I knew it, like I knew my name, that, you know, I had [00:04:00] this choice to make where I knew I couldn't go back, but I wasn't sure what going forward looked like. And it was gonna mean that I was gonna have to radically reorganize everything I had done. But I decided in that moment for me that no matter what.

I wouldn't abandon myself again. . I would never tell myself that this was okay when I knew things weren't okay. Yeah. And that was with all the things. . With my marriage, with my job, with my friendships, all the things that no matter what, the one thing I can count on was myself and I was no longer going to abandon myself.

. . Keep up this facade of what was supposed to be. Yeah, yeah. I actually had, I'm just thinking, hearing you say, don't abandon myself. I had a sticky note as I was going through the first part of my divorce, like when I first made that decision, said, don't abandon yourself again on my computer [00:05:00] because it's so important, right?

Like you lose yourself in this structure of what's supposed to be in divorce gives you this moment, whether you've chose it or not to. To become something else. It's like you have to choose yourself in that moment. Yeah. And there was a moment, I'll never forget, like prior to my, my divorce, that sort of like soft, you know, that idea that like, you know, the God universe, whatever, whatever you believe in, like first it knocks and it, you know, it whispers, it knocks, gets louder and slaughter and then it's like, You know, you took too long, it's gonna push you out.

And I had had a moment just prior to me getting separated and everything happening where I was reading an O magazine, right? Like Oprah's Magazine, I'm sitting in my beautiful bathroom, in my gorgeous tub. And you know, she has this section in the back that says like things I know for sure or something like that.

And the opening sentence, and I'll never forget it 'cause I cut it out and I kept, it was like, you can only lie to [00:06:00] yourself for so long. Ooh. And I remember sitting there and it just hit me that I was like, oh wait, do people know that I'm lying to myself?

Right. Yeah. And that was kind of the thing. And so that was sort of the starting point. And then the messy middle was, you know, kind of everything that happens after, because it's not pushing down that first domino. . Like that first Domino's really scary, but it's the, the ripple effect that happens afterwards where, you know, you just, you don't know what you don't know but you also know you can't go back.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's a difference in the feeling of how your body felt during that time? So you're in the marriage and you made the choice. Do you feel like you're, you felt an actual switch in your body, the way you breathe, the way you cared yourself? What did that [00:07:00] feel like for you? I. I mean, I did, I really, I learned the term embodiment later when I started doing yoga and started weightlifting and it was like, oh, that, that feeling in your body.

I was somebody who previously, and this is you know, no disrespect to my ex-husband or my parents or anything, but I had. I've been disassociating for my life. . For years, probably since I was a little kid. And I think probably by the time I hit my mid to late thirties, it was harder and harder to do that.

I couldn't just tap out of my reality anymore. And so, you know, once I was kind of through my divorce process, which was very fast. I've never met anybody who got divorced faster than lucky. Six weeks, and that included major holidays. We separated right before Christmas, and my divorce was [00:08:00] finalized. February 17th.

So literally six weeks from start to finish. . And yes, in that moment of feeling it in my body, there was a moment where, you know, my ex-husband and I had had this conversation about kind of what it looked like moving forward. I just knew it in my body that like, I'm gonna go upstairs, I'm gonna pack my things and I'm going to go now.

. And I, like, in my head, I'm like, where am I going? It's a couple days before Christmas. . What is happening? I had no plan at all, but I just in that moment felt this like wave of, you know, Maybe it was like, I like to think now, it was like my ancestors and all of like that energy that I had shoved down for years was like called, like I called it in that minute and it was right there for me.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that comes from that. Like I will not abandon myself [00:09:00] again. I showed up for myself in that moment and I had to continue to show up for myself in that moment. . You know, in the moments that come forward. But I learned very. I feel very grateful that I learned very quickly that my mind maybe I could trust, maybe, probably not.

But there was a feeling in my body that I knew would not lie to me. . If I kept following that, I knew I would be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when you think back about it, do you feel like the, that intensity of that moment where you were, you're saying you like called it in and you had that space, was.

Almost necessary for the launch into this messy, middle and all the energy you needed. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I really had no Id idea what my journey was going to look like. You know, I, I felt completely ill prepared . To walk out of my life in that moment. I mean, so out of my so [00:10:00] unprepared, this is one of my favorites, is that like when I went upstairs to go pack my bag I packed a bathing suit.

I packed a dress. Toward a brunch. I don't know where I thought I was going, but like I'm literally walking out of my home. . That I knew in that moment. I was never coming back. . I was never sleeping in my bed again. . I was never coming back to that house. I really sort of knew that, and there were moments later on where I was like, am I sure?

Am I sure? . But in that moment, I knew I was never coming back. Yeah. But my brain was like, it's divorce brunch. Divorce spring break. I don't know where I think I'm going with my bathing suit and my, you know, brunch dresses and I, you know it, I'm sorry. Sorry. Your body was moving. You and your brain was trying to keep up.

Yeah, my brain thought's. A vacation, you know, from Yeah, but no, I mean, my body knew I wasn't coming back. [00:11:00] Yeah, I'm sure we're gonna talk more about that, but I think that the messy middle is one of those moments where it does feel like, You're not thinking, right? And you're having so much like emotions here and there and that you do have to trust your body in going through it.

And so, yeah, let's talk more about that. And I'm so unaware. I mean, I didn't know anything, you know, if somebody had told me then like, oh, well you need to get grounded. I would've been like, What is this woo ha stuff you're talking about. Get grounded. Yeah. I'm an action oriented person. You need to tell me what to do.

. Like this. Get grounded. We're so far out of my working. No awareness. That's for somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. In that moment. Yes. And later on, that idea that I needed to get grounded was . Essential to my healing and my moving forward. But in that time, no concept of it at all. Yeah, [00:12:00] yeah.

What were some of the biggest hurdles, those moments that really were sticky through that messy middle portion for you? Yeah, I think. You know, some of the biggest things for me were, like I said, I'm an action-oriented person. I'm a big believer in like getting stuff done. I am a lead, follow or get out of my way kind of person.

So that idea that I couldn't rush through this was so hard.

You can't easy button your way out of it. You can't, like, there there's no, there's no getting around it. Healing takes as long as it takes. Learning how to, what I call sit in the suck where it's like that moment where for me it felt like my skin was like two sizes too small. Like, it's like ah, .

In my body because of. [00:13:00] Lots of things, whatever the emotions were, and I couldn't bypass them. And I really, I'm gonna, I really tried So there was, that was probably one of the hardest hurdles is there is no bypassing that healing. And what I have learned now that I know for sure is that if you don't do your healing work, you know, because you meet somebody new or you find a new job or whatever, right?

Like if you try and replace or fill that void where the healing needs to happen with something else, the healing, it doesn't go away. It just sits and waits for you. Yeah. So it sits and waits for you. And it might look like it's a slightly different form, but if you don't address that open wound it, it's going to wait for you.

Yeah. And it'll follow you everywhere you go. You cannot outrun yourself. So that [00:14:00] was something that was a really big hurdle for me to learn and something I have to continue to remind myself. Yeah. Kind of a hard challenge, but there were some like other hurdles that I think ended up being more fun, which was, you know, I had been essentially attached to a man since birth at, you know, I was like 38, 37, 38 years old, and I had gone from my dad to a high school boyfriend that I had been with for a number of years to meeting my then ex-husband.

And we had been together 18 years. So I had no adult idea of what I liked, what I didn't like. . You know, I would say to myself like, oh, I don't like that. And then I'd have to stop myself and think like, wait, do I not like that? Or did the person I was with not like that? And so I just sort of, you know, kind of co-opted their stuff[00:15:00] their likes and their dislikes, which.

I don't wanna diminish it happens in relationships, right? Yeah, yeah. But because I had no adult foundation, I didn't know, so I gave myself permission to like get curious about like every time I said I like something or didn't like something, I gave myself permission to go like, wait, do I, do I not? Can I test this?

So like things that I found out about myself were like, I don't hate all country music. There's some I like, . I would go to my friends and be like, like make me playlist. Tell me who you like and let me listen to those artists, or let me try different types of food that I thought I didn't like before.

And I allowed myself to change my mind. I gave my permission, I gave myself permission to say, I know I used to say I like X, Y, and Z, but I actually don't anymore. And that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. And anytime I would get pushback, right? 'cause you don't [00:16:00] live in a vacuum, you're living in a world, right? Like you're still in your environment.

That when I would get pushback about like, oh, well you used to love that. Yeah. But it's just not my thing anymore. And like having to learn how to be okay with that too. Yeah. Do you think that it got ease? Did it get easier over time as people were pushing for yourself to like trust that you liked something or trace that the new thing was actually you and not some training?

You know, it did, it does get easier over time. And I give my, per myself permission to change back at any point. Yeah, right. That's good. That idea that it's like, I'm not doing this right now. Like, yeah, I'm not really doing that right now. I don't really that's not really my thing right now. And something about that right now.

And this comes from Melissa Urban. I learned this from her, who's the founder of Whole 30. But she does a lot of other stuff. She's, she's a writer, [00:17:00] writer and that, something about that not right now gives other people kind of space to go Oh, okay. And not feel like you are challenging their beliefs now.

. And, and, and that sort of thing. So I had a lot of fun in that process of figuring myself out and I really did kind of make it a game. But I had to put some stuff aside. I started drinking way too much for a while. And I had in, been in previous relationships with people who had alcoholism, so I was familiar with that and I had my own kind of, I.

Moment where I realized after I'd been drinking way too much and I was hanging out with friends and it was so much fun and blah, blah, blah. And then I went from like laughing hysterically to sobbing uncontrollably on the street, making an absolute fool of myself. [00:18:00] And I was with a couple of friends.

They drove me home. I the whole way home kind of like. Uncontrollable sub. . And I woke up the next morning and kind of said to myself, if I don't stop this now, this is where my alcoholism begins. Yeah. That numbing is Yeah. Yeah, I had to like clear that up too, right? . I wish I could say it was like, oh, it was just divorce, right?

Yeah. But there's all this stuff that lives underneath it that had to be addressed, which quite frankly, probably led to the divorce in the first place. Like we, you never know, right? But I will say that we didn't start off on a strong foundation. Right, right. Yeah, I get that. And I think that this time, it seems weird to say it, that when you're in this messy time, right, when you have this intense grief of losing your relationship, that it's a gift that you can give yourself to, to heal in it.

Right. And it's hard. It's like, did it feel like a rollercoaster? Right? Some [00:19:00] days you'd be like, I got this. And then all of a sudden, boom, something there, well else would happen. And then you're like, I got this again. And then, and I feel like that's the go, kind of going back to that messy middle and You know what Brene Brown had talked about is day two.

So she was talking about real high level was like they do these three day trainings and like the first day is great, and you're like, Woohoo. And then you get to day two and people are tired and they feel emotionally drained and it's hard to push through, right? Like now you're moving through the more challenging stuff.

And for me that really resonated with me and it was something that kind of stuck with me. And it really, it's the hero's journey. So, you know, this came out of a conversation she had had at Pixar, and if you've ever watched any Disney movie, they always follow the same narrative bar, right? . It's the, the hero goes out, he has to make a pivotal choice, and then it's like all the drama that comes around.

You know, based on that like fork in the road, I'm gonna go left, I'm gonna go right? .[00:20:00] And so I think that analogy helps me, but there were plenty of times where, ugh, the loneliness felt awful. It felt depressive. Yeah. You know, I did all of Covid, you know, living in a small one bedroom apartment by myself working remotely.

And that was really hard. Like the, the, there were points where it just, yeah, I just felt so alone. . I felt really confused. I didn't feel like I had anybody that I could talk to. Right. Because not only did I get divorced, but then you have this, right? Like this is Queer Divorce Club, right? Yeah, yeah.

There's whole navigation of sexuality that I was like, oh, then I. I didn't have language for before I got married. I was now looking back, I was, I, I, I was always bi, I was always bisexual. I, [00:21:00] I think I always had that, but you know, I'm in my mid forties now, so there was no language for it. There was no representation.

I was in college. It. When Ellen came out, right? Like, and she was like the first like queer woman that you really saw as any kind of representation. So for me, I was, now I'm having to deal with that too. . And what that meant and not feeling like there was any kind of, Place I could have those conversations.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the reality is you're dealing with the grief of disconnection. If you're already were out as queer before, you're dealing with the grief of like losing a queer relationship. If you, you know, if you get divorced, you're coming out. Some people are, no matter what, you're redefining yourself in this moment.

And that is a lot of work. One of the questions I get a lot in. Our Facebook group actually a couple times just last week is like, how long is this gonna [00:22:00] last? How long is this messing that is gonna last? Last, long it last? Yeah. How long? Absolutely. It lasts as long as it lasts. Yeah. And that, and having to navigate that process of, you know, coming out and luckily mine was very easy.

You know, I come from very, you know, I, I always say that I come from like, liberal Yankee stock, right? . Like, you know, it was not, my parents were like, okay. My sister was like, okay. My friends mostly were like, okay, like, we love you. We don't really care. It's not a big thing. But. You know, that idea of like having to start dating again, you know, in my late thirties .

Right now I have to figure out how to navigate what that looks like. Yeah. So yeah, there was a lot of learning curves and there were definitely moments where, you know, I, I think honesty and transparency [00:23:00] really important is that there were moments that I mourned my own life . That I thought, oh my God, what did I do?

Yeah. You know, what did I do? Yeah. And it's a very natural feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was, and just having to like, you know, again, kind of go back to that idea that no matter what, I'm going to be okay. . Remind yourself of that. All the time. Yeah. Note cards on the wall kind of thing. Yes. Put it in your face.

Yep. Journaling. A lot of journaling. Yeah. . I had an amazing therapist who really helped me, Dr. Rachel, and forever grateful to her because, you know, I have a therapist. Right when I got divorced and you know, you kind of do that stuff. And I did that for like eight months. . And then I thought it was good.

I really did. I [00:24:00] thought like I was good. And I think this is really important for people who are early in on their journey to know this. 'cause I don't think people talk about it like I did, like, I don't know, seven, eight months of therapy. I have my own apartment, like I'm good. . Good. And then like a year and a half goes by.

I realized I'm not good. Mm. Like I was so ungrounded. . I was, you know, this was in my time of like drinking too much and like I thought I was having a lot of fun and I'm not gonna say that I wasn't having a lot fun. Sure. Right. That feels disingenuous. Yeah. But, What I didn't realize was there was this huge vacuum of validation that had left, you know, once I got divorced once, I was no longer attached to this other person I had been attached to for 18 years, and man, I was trying to fill that.

Way I could, so I became a [00:25:00] yoga teacher, a spin instructor. I was teaching like spin classes at 5:00 AM Uhhuh gonna work a full day. Yeah. Going and taking an hour power yoga class afterwards. . And so I'm like looking great and people are like, oh my gosh, you're doing so well and blah, blah, blah. And then I had this moment of like, yeah, waking up and after, you know, having way too much to drink and thinking like, I, I'm not good.

Yeah. And having to start kind of, I had to move to my mom's . For a year just to like level set. And I found a new therapist and what I, what I found out later on that I didn't know was, you know, 'cause I asked him like, I did this therapy. Like, what? I thought I was good. I was talking to a good friend of mine whose sister was a therapist and she and had gone through similar things to what I had gone through, and she was like, oh no.

That first rounds, that [00:26:00] was you getting through the crisis, that immediate crisis of. You know, your life changing and getting divorced and all of that kind of stuff. Now what you're dealing with is all that stuff you haven't dealt with for all those years that you just ignored and you just pushed down.

Oh, yep. Things are like all the way back from like childhood, whatever. . Now that you're in a safe space, now you have to go handle that mess. Yeah, you're right. People don't talk about that enough. Once you hit that safe space, it ignites it. Oh, like what? I thought it was done. I thought it was done, but no, it was just, you know, so I think that that's really important for people to realize that, you know, people say like, oh, healing isn't linear, and that's true.

It's not. But I don't think anybody had told me that. Like, you might have to do this. Kind of start [00:27:00] over. More than once. Yeah. And I would say if somebody had told me that, I would've freaked me out, honestly. So that's probably why I didn't know. But now, like having come through it . I realize how valuable that was.

The, that first mess was really valuable to clean that up, but that second mess and, and giving myself time. To really focus on it. And I did, I didn't date for a couple of years. I really focused on myself. Because one thing I kind of realized that that thing I know for sure I know it, like I know my own name is that if I didn't clean up my stuff, I was dragging that into my next relationship.

. And then I was going to be the, you know, The villain, right? Yeah. Like I was going to be that person with all the toxicity that was, you know, that you hear about in [00:28:00] relationships. That was gonna be me until I learned how to clean up my own stuff. So, yeah. How profound would be to be able to see that.

That's amazing that you're able to see that and seek out the things that you needed. Yeah, and thank you for bringing up that moment. 'cause I think it's so true is talking with somebody else on the podcast about this too, and I experienced it, is that once I got, for me, it was the moment of having a secure relationship was.

Then that like ignited some of the stress of that past too. I was able finally to, to grow and heal. But then that also meant that all of these triggers were unleashing themselves because I was in the secure space. And people don't realize that that happens when safety happens, when security happens, not before.

When you're, when you're avoiding by being busy, which is one of my favorite tactics too, by the way. No, that one real well. Yeah. You're not actually doing anything, but you're not actually healing. You're just doing, right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's Trevor Hall has a [00:29:00] song, he's a musician that says you can't rush your healing.

And I remember like that, my yoga teacher, one of my yoga teachers had played it in a class. And so I'm in Shavasana and it starts playing or like maybe towards the end of a class, and I'm like, sobbing hysterically. Yeah. Because yeah, you can't, you can't just, there's no amount of push through. No, I just doesn't.

If there was, I would've figured it out. I promise. Take your word for it. Now. You're making millions on selling how to get through, how to navigate. There's no way. There isn't. There isn't. No. So what things did help you move through the healing and finally ground yourself as you keep saying, and find the space that you needed to heal?

Yeah. So therapy number one. . I mean, like, I. Dr. Rachel Love her. She's amazing. She, she did so much to help me through that. I think getting, learning how to get [00:30:00] quiet. And stop trying to push through. Really helped. So, like I said, you know, I ended up becoming, I have my 500 hour yoga teacher certification which means it's like 500 hours of study such as practice.

That's like study. . And yogic philosophy helped me. So it's more than just kind of the movement on the mat, but you know, kind of the thought processes behind it. And while I would say I'm still a very grounded yogi, like there are some people who live like way up here, I would consider myself still a very grounded yogi, just kind of understanding that yogic philosophy.

Right, like, so the basis of yogas the yamas, the niyamas, and then asana, if you believe, believe the above the eight limb theory, you know, Asana, which is like, that physical practice is the third. So it's a pyramid, right? [00:31:00] So, but the basis is essentially like you know, kind of the, the dos and do nots of like living a good life.

So it's like, do no harm. It's about learning. It's, there's all of this kind of philosophy. And so I started kind of trying to follow that and that helped. I would get up early. Luckily I live in Fort Lauderdale, so I'm very close to the beach. And I would get up at Sunrise to go watch the sunrise on the beach and I would go for a walk.

I would journal. One of the best things 'cause I am somebody who suffers. Now I know that I had both anxiety and periods of depression. Like, oh, I didn't know. Whoa. Yeah know, right? I didn't really know much about, you know, mental health beforehand. That, you know, my therapist had told me to.

Write myself a letter when I was very [00:32:00] grounded and very, you know, stable and in a good place, and write myself a letter to that version of myself when I would get. Overwhelmed, sad, you know, upset all the things, right? That would be a reminder, like, you know, dear self you know, I'm sorry you're feeling upset and triggered.

Remember that this feeling doesn't. Last, remember being in this space right now that I'm writing this letter to you and know that it's possible again. Right. And so I had to kind of almost leave, leave myself breadcrumbs Yeah. For those really dark moments to remind myself that they weren't going to last.

Yeah. And then kind of inventing, you know, like I said, I had gotten curious about the stuff that I was you know, that I liked and didn't like. But you know, I started kind of creating my own life and I know that sounds ridiculous. Of course, you're creating your own life. Who else is gonna create it?[00:33:00]

But like I created my own holidays. You know, I tried to create, find the moments of joy in things, and that helps. Like did everything, I think, 'cause previously when I thought about like moments of joy, it was like going on vacation and you know, going out with friends. It was like event-based. .

Right. And I realized I had lived so much of my life just getting to the next event. Like it's Christmas, I've just gotta get to New Year's. Right. Like, and then it's, you know, my birthday and then it's whatever. Right? Like you're just, I'm not living in the moment I'm living for the next event. Yeah. Like I just gotta get through this.

. Busy season at work and then this other thing will happen. So giving myself an opportunity to like, Slow down and find joy in little things, you know? . Like a pretty journal that [00:34:00] I just found, like, oh, I love that. That makes me so happy. . Yeah, like watching the sunrise, taking a beautiful photograph.

All of those little things. That I could find joy in helped me anchor in those moments where everything felt too much and overwhelming. Yeah. Isn't that another thing that emotional support Coffee support Coffee. Yeah. Emotional support. Coffee you have to replace. Yeah. Coffee is a good emotional support.

Keeps you moving. I would just sort of carry it around sometimes like, like this is blanket support coffee. My partner actually gave me a t-shirt that says like, I just need an emotional support coffee and a day at the beach or something like that. Yes. Oh, that sounds a joyous. I gonna say cost no money.

Doesn't really, you know, $5 coffee, whatever. But those, finding those moments of choice were hugely helpful. And then writing it down [00:35:00] like, And being able to remind myself that like a freshly lit fall candle. 'cause I'm obsessed with fall and pumpkins and all that stuff like that can give me a moment of joy.

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, I think thinking to that, that joy space is, that's something that I had the, the hardest time with, is embracing joy. And I still sometimes do, and that's something Brene Brown also talks about is like the hardest human emotion to embrace is joy and it just, After hearing her say that and thinking through this process too, and the process I went through in my messy middle, it's like it's true.

It's true that now even like some of the crisis brain of like embrace the joy you have now. It's okay. It's okay. That's keep reminding myself. Well, and that's the whole thing about embracing joy, right? Is because that flip side of joy, if you allow yourself to embrace joy, that means you have to accept space for sex.

Mm. And I was someone, so, you know, kind of going back to that yogic philosophy, heart chakra, very [00:36:00] like closed off, very, you know, kind of clenched in and there's a lot of work that you can kind of do to help open that heart space. But even if you don't believe in any energy work, you can understand that idea of a barrier to, you know, wanting to get her again.

Yeah. That is that flip side, right? Is that if you are willing to accept those, you can't accept the joy without leaving space for potential sadness. You have to do both. It doesn't work any other way. . So you have to be willing to like let your guard down enough. And that goes back to learning how to trust yourself and something we talk about a lot, you know, kind of in you know, this, this.

Group that I help them and that, that you're a part of is that idea of you know, making space and, and you can't you have to be able to open your heart and, and know that you are going to be okay. Yeah. And [00:37:00] trusting yourself, right? Like, it's great to try and ask strangers on the internet for their advice, but at the end of the day, only you know what is true for you.

Yeah. Yes. That's profound and we all make it through. I think that's the, in order to trust yourself, you have to trust that that's the idea, is that you're going to be able to make it through. You have to trust yourself to make it through. It's, you're making it through. Yeah. Right. Like, we have this, we, we live in this world that's always destination driven.

Right? Like, you know, it's like that idea that somehow you can cross the finish line and be done. What I think we all, most of us fail to recognize is the finish line is death. Right. Right. There's no end the finish line, at least in my interpretation. Right. You know, people are welcome to believe whatever they wanna believe, but for me, I, I, when I realized like that idea that I was running towards that finish line and that wait, that what finish is death?[00:38:00]

Yeah. There is no end point is all journey. . It's, it's all journey. Yeah. So if you're trying to run towards living, you gotta experience the joy and the sadness. Right. And the anger and the, all the feelings. Yeah. . And know that none of it lasts. And that was something that, you know, it was reinforced a lot in my, with my yoga teachers, is that no feeling is final.

Yeah. Right. So that like, the joy doesn't last and that's okay. So stop trying to chase it. Yeah. But the sadness doesn't last, so stop trying to rush through it. You know, the heart doesn't last. Stop trying to rush through that too. . You know, and I say all of this with, you know, a tremendous amount of privilege that I had a therapist to work through it.

Yeah. I don't mean medications to be stabilized, so I am saying all of this, that is true for me. . With the understanding that, you know, for someone else they may need more. Yeah. And that's okay. [00:39:00] Yeah. That's okay too. Seek what's true to yourself and what yeah. What it takes to help you trust yourself.

Yeah. Yes, for sure. When you look back through all of that mess, what is, what are you really the most proud of throughout that process? I think. I am proud of learning to find joy. You know, I have a, a real quick story about like, so I had said early on that we got separated right before Christmas and I loved Christmas.

And so going through that first kind of year is awful. And I feel like everybody expects the first year to be awful, but they don't realize it can stay awful unless you make some changes on your own.

And so it was like summertime and I knew we were going into fall season and I had always loved fall and I love pumpkins and all the whole thing. And I was starting to dread, you know, Halloween I was starting to dread Thanksgiving. . Oh my God. Christmas, like, oh my gosh, my [00:40:00] life looks so different.

And all of these things, right? And all of my memories for the most part included this other person who was no longer there. So I didn't know how to separate. You know that from what was going to come forward, right? So I just decided one day that I would create my own holiday that I could celebrate, that nobody could ruin for me, that wasn't associated with anybody else's memories or whatever.

And so I chose, because I have an emotional support to coffee pumpkin Spice Release Day from Starbucks. Hmm. That like, and I still celebrate it to this day that like, the day that it's released, everybody knows, right? They know the lead up. All my friends, all my family. Then it's like, oh, when's it coming out?

Da da. That I will go that day. You know, I have t-shirts, I have like now a series of pumpkin spice t-shirts. So I have like a [00:41:00] t-shirt I get every year and I go in and I get my coffee and it's just, It's magic. It does sound magic. It sounds magical to have a holiday that doesn't have any pain related to it.

There's not, there's not one. Right. Nobody can take it away from me. Yeah. . So I, you know, that was prob, that was something that I felt like was very special for me and I would invite other people to find their version of special. But I think now I am, you know, seven, eight years into this process.

That learning how to heal and get healed today was what allowed me to have a healthy, loving relationship that I have now. . You know? And I wouldn't have gotten there with all, without having done all that work. So, you know, for me, I'm hugely proud of that, that I did that work. And so [00:42:00] now I'm in a relationship where I feel very safe.

Very comfortable. We're very supportive. The one thing I can say about during my partner is we are partners. . Right? Like nobody gets to out rule the other one. I mean, we have our moments where it's like, all right, you really want this more than I don't want it, so it's fine kind of thing. Yeah. But we learn compromise.

We learn really good communication skills. You know, we talk through when we have those moments of resentment. We talk through it now so that it doesn't create a crack in the foundation that ultimately leads to our device. . Right. Because it's, I've always been a big believer that relationships don't fail because of big things, right?

Like the cheating and the lying or whatever. Those are big things, but it starts with these teeny tiny, like, like Little you know, cracks Yeah. [00:43:00] In the foundation. And they just build and build and build and build. So instead of letting resentment build, we talk about it in the moments. And I think because we are both, you know, well-heeled individuals, we can have those conversations and in safe spaces.

. And know that like, You know, they're not attacking me and I'm not attacking them or whatever, that we're here to support each other even when we don't. Yeah. That's important. Heal yourself so you can have these other profound relationships in your life and grow through. There's always gonna be times too that you have to grow through that, but understanding that you can heal and how you heal and how you manage those triggers is yes.

So important. Yeah. Learning like, yeah, they have triggers. I have triggers, like . We try and manage them and you know, that idea that like you know, one thing I had learned in therapy, you know, That I remember my therapist saying to me, you know what, if healing doesn't [00:44:00] look like the trigger goes away, what if healing looks like when that trigger happens, it's less intense and it doesn't last that long, right?

. Instead of focusing on it going away, because that might never go away. There are some core wounds that are just so deep that they'll live with me forever, but I can focus on intensity and duration. Right. Like you have control over those? Yeah. Sort of. No, I have control. It lasts for a couple of minutes.

It doesn't, it doesn't feel that intense. It's on a, you know, I go to a six and then to a three. . You know, in five minutes as opposed to going to a 40 and staying there for days. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned a timeline earlier, and we talked about that messy middle space. Do you think that the, the time actually becomes the, The amount of time you're feeling, the hard gets less and less as you pass.

Oh yeah. And then [00:45:00] that's a sign of healing and movement forward. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I don't, if it wasn't for kind of spending time, you know, helping others navigate through their path, right. I probably wouldn't think about it much at all. Because my life is so different, I barely recognize that old version of me, you know?

Luckily my ex and I don't share children or anything, so we were able to disconnect in a very sort of clean way that I think ultimately it was probably healthiest for the both of us. So like, I don't. See him. I don't, I mean, I kind of know where he is. If I needed to track him down, I could, but .

We're not in anywhere near each other's lives. We both operate independently. I actually never came out to him. We never had a conversation about it because that wasn't what my divorce was about anyway. I think I've learned through the process that I [00:46:00] couldn't. I couldn't not come out right? Like, I couldn't come back to that hetero life anyway.

I just, I wasn't feeling it anymore. But that wasn't, that wasn't because of him, right? Like, it's just who, part of my own evolution. That's, yeah. It, it gets less and less. And honestly, most of the time I, I don't even think of it except in the moments where I feel like I, you know, I'll read somebody's post or something and be like, oh.

I need to, I remember that feeling and it's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And learn how to give yourself grace and, you know, try to remember to give other people grace too. Yeah. Oh, that made me take a big, deep breath. I keep talking about on the podcast when people bring up stories too. It's, it is, it's like this moment of, oh, I know that feeling.

And your body can feel it, and you can give yourself space to move past it. And that's, it's good to feel like I can move past it. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I feel very, Grateful that [00:47:00] I can. Right. And, and again. A lot of that comes from, I do have a lot of privilege that I was able to rebuild my life.

You know, I had a college degree, so even though I wasn't making that much money at my original job, I was able through a series of, you know, important steps. . I now make more money. I make twice what I made that, you know, so I had that capability. I had the ability to pay for a therapist. . You know, When I say, yes, you can do it too, that I always have to remind myself that, you know, while my path was challenging you know, I still had a lot of privilege that I was able to address my own needs almost in an insular way, right?

. Because I didn't have children who were pulling me that I had to focus on, right. Yeah. You know, I didn't have sick parents that I had to worry about. [00:48:00] I could spend all of my time sort of focused on me. So, you know, when I think about telling people to give themselves grace, I, it's like, I almost want to tell them, give yourself way more grace than you think you need.

But it's more, . So hard. Before you leave us, before you leave us, me and the listeners today, what is one thing you would you wanna leave leave them with and think about what is the most important thing for you or, you know, that you can think of as they're rebuilding after a divorce? To just stay true to themselves.

Like, you know, as much as. There was a moment in my divorce where I was standing at the elevator. We were at the lawyer's office and we had just signed the paperwork, right? So now it's going to go to the judge just to sign off on it. Florida doesn't do divorce state, it's very easy to get divorced here.

Like literally paperwork [00:49:00] goes to a judge. He went to the court, the, they're like, okay, you're done. Yeah, I didn't even have to go to court. I literally just signed paperwork and left. But there was this moment where I was standing at the elevator and I am realizing what has happened and you know, it's, it's officially over and I start crying and I know that he is behind me.

Like he had just walked out to the hallway. . And I can feel his energy, he's right here. And, but I knew that I could not turn to him. He was no longer my safe space. I couldn't turn to him with all my sadness, all my tears and whatever. We were now separate entities. And so that idea that like, yes, we have partnerships and I have a great healthy partnership but we are our own entities and so we are responsible for ourselves entirely.

. And so, You know, learn to trust [00:50:00] yourself. And it's the best advice I can give anybody about, well, how do I know? And you know about dating someone else and red flags and all of that kind of stuff. Right. If you stay true to you, I, I believe, at least I know in my body, my body will never leave me wrong.

My brain is gonna rationalize . My body. Yeah. Yeah. It, it that is, it's the literal human instinct of protection. You know, animals don't talk, the lions don't talk themselves out of, you know, doing what lions do. Gazelle sees a lion. They don't think, well, that lion might really wanna be my friend, or they're just like, Right, like it's instinct when you learn yourself and trust yourself and trust your own instincts.

. Everything else falls into place after that. Yes, yes, yes. Love that. [00:51:00] I love that gazelle analogy too. Trust yourself, like a gazelle would trust themselves, so I love it. Yeah, they're on the line. No, they might, might be a lovely person.

The lion might be lovely, and yes, they may have come from a hard background and very difficult place and blah, blah, blah. Still lying. No. Yeah. Right. Yeah, so true. And we're only responsible for our healing. . You, there is no amount of love, energy, compassion, anything that you can do to fill somebody else's void.

Yeah. You can't, you can't love someone into loving you back. You can't love someone into, you know, anything. They are responsible for themselves, and so while we need to operate as like, In healthy relationships. We operate like this, right? Like . We're safe spaces for each other, but I'm not [00:52:00] taking on all of their stuff.

They're not taking on all of mine. Yeah. That, that's when enmeshment happens. That's healthy. So yeah, learn how to heal yourself and you'll be okay. Yes, yes, yes. So true. Anne, thank you so much for sharing that with us and leaving us with that amazing gem. I appreciate so much you being vulnerable and sharing your story.

It's really. Astounding. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

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Episode 12: Nina Raff, LCSW, Choosing Family Reconfiguration and Divorcing Peacefully

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Episode 10: Dr. Lynda Spann; Red Flags and When to Call it Quits