Episode 12: Nina Raff, LCSW, Choosing Family Reconfiguration and Divorcing Peacefully
In this episode I have the privilege of chatting with Nina Raff, a seasoned psychotherapist specializing in collaborative divorce and the discernment process. Nina's expertise shines as she offers invaluable insights on various crucial aspects of divorce.
Throughout our conversation, you'll gain valuable advice from Nina on choosing the right divorce approach for you, recognizing signs that it may be time for divorce, and effectively communicating about this transition with your children. We also delve into the unique challenges faced by queer divorcees and how to navigate them, all while ensuring you make informed decisions throughout the process.
Notably, Nina's perspective on divorce as a reconfiguration of family dynamics is eye-opening, emphasizing that divorce is a choice, not a failure. By working together with our ex-partners, we can create a solid foundation for post-divorce life. Keep listening for a wealth of insights that can guide you through your divorce process.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Nina Raff
No one gets married thinking they will divorce. Marriage has been such a hard won fight for LGBTQI+ couples. We enter into love relationships with high hopes and plans. It can be devastating when it goes south. Nina Raff, LCSW has been a psychotherapist for over 30 years helping people with transitions and change.
Nina is an individual and couple therapist as well as a mediator, collaborative coach, and a discernment counselor for couples who are not completely sure about divorcing. She has studied and consulted and trained continually since she received her MSW from Cal Berkeley in 1988. Nina has extensive interest and experience working with LGBTQI+ families and individuals. In addition, she has many years of experience treating addictions including both the individual with addiction and family members affected.
Nina belongs to Collaborative Practice Golden Gate, Collaborative Practice California and the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals. She has been a volunteer with Peninsula Conflict Resolution Center and has in the past worked for Kids’ Turn. She is a certified co-parenting specialist. Nina is retired from Kaiser Permanente and is working only remotely.
You can find Nina online at collaborativedivorcegoldengate.org.
Show Transcript
Hey, hey, Queer Divorce Club. Welcome back to the podcast. In this episode, I had the privilege of chatting with Nina Raf. She's a seasoned psychotherapist specializing in collaborative divorce and the discernment process. She explains what both of those processes are and how you can use them to achieve a more peaceful divorce.
Throughout our conversation, I really gained valuable insights from Nina on how to choose the right divorce approach, how to recognize signs that it may be time for a divorce, and how to effectively communicate about the divorce transition with your children. We also dive into the unique challenges queer divorcees face, and how to navigate those challenges and heal post-divorce.
I really also love Nina's perspective on divorce as a reconfiguration of family dynamics and how she emphasizes divorce as a choice and not a failure. I'm excited to share our conversation with you all. Let's get started.[00:01:00]
Hi, Nina. Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you so much, Tara. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited to, to talk with you today about queer divorce and the different emotions that we have as L G B T Q people as we leave divorce, and the hurdles we might face in divorce. It's gonna be absolutely one of those exciting conversations.
I hope so. Okay. It'll be, it'll be okay. Can you get us started with a little glimpse of your background with divorce and working with queer couples? Sure. So I retired from Kaiser Permanente, which is a health H m o about a year ago. And I had worked there for about 30 years in addiction treatment in the psychiatry department, and as I was getting towards retirement.
And then after retirement, I started working more with couples and with divorce. So it's been a few years that I've been working with [00:02:00] divorce both with straight couples queer, non-queer gay and lesbian and transgender. And I've had parties with both. My work tends to be about parenting plans, a lot of parenting plans, helping people through divorce and also post-divorce communication, sometimes co-parenting.
And especially, you know, people with kids obviously. I also am part of a group. I'm on the board of a collaborative divorce Golden Gate, which is a collaborative process for divorce where I work as a coach, as a mental health provider, coaching the parties, either both or one of the parties. And they also have attorneys and a financial, and we work together as a team to support the couple that's divorcing the family.
And I also do discernment co counseling, which is a process for couples who are on the brink of divorce, but they're still not sure [00:03:00] and I can talk more about that. So yeah. That's kind. I'm collaborative. Yeah. Collaborative divorce, I'm cons inter intrigued in that process, is it a group of psychologists that are working together or is it attorneys and financial and psychologists and all of those type of people in a group?
Yeah. So each person has their own attorney. There's one financial for both who's a neutral and of oftentimes one coach for both, or sometimes each party has a coach. Hmm. And then there can also be a child specialist. In addition, there can be other professionals that are brought in, but that's the basic team.
And we work as a team where it's pretty, we're pretty transparent. We support the family to have, as, I don't know, comfortable, peaceful non-contentious divorce as possible. And so the attorneys are, we're all specially drained in this process. Okay. And working [00:04:00] together. And if the couple, what we call it falls out, if it, they don't reach an agreement through this process on any part of it, all of it or any of it they can still go to court, but we don't go with them.
So they have to get new professionals. And so kind of is a little bit of a motivation to like get a decision together. Yeah. And also, but if people really can't, then we do help them make that transition to other professionals as well. And also keeps it very private if we don't go to court, so they can't, you know, ask us what happened or, you know, try to pin us down on something that people said or whatever.
So it's, it's very protective as, as well of the family. Oh, there's so many different ways to get divorced. I keep learning about all these different ways. I just use a single attorney. There's mediation, there's non-tested, there's collaborative divorce. It's awesome to hear about another kind. Right.
Right. And so the way that I think about it is depend, it depends on how much support you need [00:05:00] and you know, if you don't need any support, you can do it yourself. Also, I should say, I'm in California and I really am only familiar with California. Yeah. In terms of the processes. So I don't really know what they're like in other states and they can be different.
So we have, you know, if you don't need any support, you can sit at the table and figure it out yourself. You can get support on your forms and stuff like that from the courthouse that will help you with that. And if you need you know, otherwise you can get a mediator, help you with things that are sticky and that you're having trouble with.
If you need a lot of support and you need, you just feel like you really can't do it yourself. You can get attorneys and go the litigation route. And if you need a lot of support, but you really wanna make the decisions yourself. The team of collaborative is really good and it's an international movement, actually, the collaborative movement to help people.
It's like, to me it's peacemaking. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound like it could, and it gives you an [00:06:00] opportunity to work through, sort of similar to mediation in a way that it is different, like building out what you want and outta your divorce and thinking more long term and keeping your relationship together.
Yeah. Yeah. It's really similar to mediation, except it's more help. Mm. It's just more help than a mediator. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's Yeah, you bet. Of course. Do you think through that process and through working with all the couples you worked with, do you see queer divorce looking different than straight divorce?
So, yeah, I thought about that question and There is are some really big differences, not so much in terms of the process or legally in California it's pretty similar. I don't know if there's any differences. I'm not an attorney to speak to that, but you know, queer people have families of choice and it's really different than the way that straight people see their marriages.
They, you know, I, I'm pretty old, [00:07:00] so for me it's a long time of not being able to get married. So, for instance I've been with my wife for 36 years and we've been married for six. So one thing that we wanna consider, like if we were to get divorced, is I don't think we should consider six years. Yeah, like we need to consider a bigger chunk of time, whatever that might be.
We would, we would come together in mediation or collaborative and talk about a larger period of time. And many couples are in that situation where they've been together much longer than they've been married. So that's one piece. Also people, when it became legal, a lot of queer people rushed out and got married and they didn't really think about what that meant legally and what their responsibilities were gonna be.
You know, in divorce, one thing that we think, you know, the three parts are your assets, support and how you're gonna deal with your children. [00:08:00] Right. People don't think about that when they're getting married. Well, they don't anyway 'cause they're like, you know, happy to be getting married. But I, I do think that a lot of people sort of rushed out and said, let's get married.
This is so exciting. We get to get married now. And with no real concept of. You know, what it would mean if they did split up. 'cause you know, obviously couples have split up forever. You know, they've been together and split up without the legal protections and responsibilities, I should say, too. And another thing that's really different about queer couples, queer families is how we get our children.
You know, we there's so much more adoption at every age. There's surrogacy, there's you know, assisted reproduction. And there's also more parents, like a lot of times, couples. It's not just a couple, there's three parents, or sometimes there's even four parents because of, you know, our, our systems of getting children.
[00:09:00] So I think that, you know, divorce is, is a way of changing the configuration of your family. I think that actually queer people understand that better than straight people because we have already have very creative ways of configuring our families. Yeah. We. Go. I was gonna ask you about the, I'm gonna ask you a little bit about the family configurations.
'cause we, we talk about that a lot in my new relationship and how there's four adults now and parenting three kids. And before we, you know, entered this space, we knew that we wanted to have a different type of family configuration and different type of parenting model than just splitting 50 50. And, you know, going from there and it's work, it takes work to get to, it does a holistic family system where everybody's working together.
But what are you seeing are some ways that people, that queer families are choosing to structure their family or co-parenting structures differently than post-divorce?[00:10:00] I think it's really, you're right, it is a lot more work, but it's also work that I think queer families are a lot more open to.
And are not just stuck in a rigid mindset. This the, the way that a lot of straight families are more, you know, more rigid, I guess I could say. That might not be true for everyone. But I think that there is a lot more openness to the new partners over time. A lot of times not at first, that takes a minute.
But there's more openness to new partners. There is more also openness to to again, you know, a bigger family structure where, like you said, you have four parents with your three kids, and you a lot of, I think non-queer families would just think of the two parents and then the stepparents.
And they would think of them that way as opposed to thinking them all parenting these children and. And also [00:11:00] because I think that a lot of queer families do have more than two parents to start with. They may have partnered up with maybe you know, maybe women and men have partnered together to have their children.
They really think about like, how is this gonna go? And they don't wanna take their children away from the other parents. I think more so. That's, you know, and then there's also the thing of like parentage itself. Like what is, who is a parent? That can be in question, because I've also had some couples where they, one partner either had the children or was pregnant before they got together.
And so then they are splitting up and thinking about is, is this person a parent or not a parent? 'cause they weren't part of a decision to have the children. Right. Yeah. So, you know, people can resolve that many ways. You know, with some[00:12:00] connection. Or sometimes people are so mad that they, you know, they really fight over it.
Do you see cases where somebody who may have had a biological child then gets married and they have like maybe a three year old or a two year old, so they've been in the child's life, maybe a good amount of their life by the time they get divorced. So say they're married 10 years and get divorced.
Yeah. Do you see situations where sometimes the, the parent who's not the biological parent getting parenting time, that would have to be up to, of course, the biological parent, right. In the, at least in, well, that's what makes, you know, mediation and collaborative so great. Because you can make those decisions.
I mean, you can make them anyway, but it just brings people to like, what is best for this child? What's be best for these children? What's gonna support them the most? And I think that, Maybe I'm just like idealistic, but I think that queer families are able to think about that more easily. Yeah. And are able to, you know, [00:13:00] really make that decision.
Like I just, you know, think that my child has a relationship with this other parent, whether they I'm with them or not, and they should be able to continue that relationship that's gonna be good for them. So it really is best for the kid in the long run. I feel like, I know I went, my parents were not, my parents were straight and got divorced and there was very much a lot of that traditional, like my dad only saw us on the weekends and one night a week and or every other weekend and one night a week.
And you know, my mom took care of us and she was the solid parent. What, whatever. There was never this idea that you could have more than two parents in your life. When I gained a stepparent too, it was even like, I. His kids against my mom's kids. And, you know, it was never this collaborative experience in any situation.
But it's so different now. I think that's part of just what we're learning about what it means to be a parent. But also I do think you're right that there's a big difference between being able to choose your family, people who have been, been in polyamorous relationships or Right. And [00:14:00] queer relationships and understanding that we can all love each other in different ways and open up that space and care for each other more than just two people with one kid.
I really think so. And I think that straight couples are coming around to that a lot more now as well. But there's just an openness I think because we have had to choose our families in a different way. And we've been, you know, pushed to choose our families by the way that it's set up that, you know, I think that queer people have just become more creative and more open.
We've had to. So yeah, we've had to, had to, and then it turns out to be a blessing. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. And you know, I really like to think about divorce as changing the configuration of your family as opposed to breaking up the family or ruining the family, or, you know, tearing it apart.
It's like, no, actually we're changing the configuration and it's gonna look different. And we have [00:15:00] to figure out what we want that to look like and whether we can make it that way or not. You know, everyone doesn't always agree with everything. But but one thing that also we've learned, because I think also like my experience with queer couples is that so many people are like best friends with their exes.
Like they still have their exes in with or without children. They still have their exes in their families many years later. And again, that doesn't always happen right away. A lot of times there's anger and there's, you know, So many feelings that go along with the beginning of a divorce, whether it's legal, divorce, or just breaking up or whatever it may be.
But over all of the years it's been like that so many, many times that I think that we have a little bit more of an expectation that that person might stay in our family. Yeah. It's, yeah. It's such a stronger like, asset based approach to reconfiguring your family. You're not exploring. Right. And you chose [00:16:00] this person, you love them.
They, they're not the devil. Right. At one point you love them and created a family with them and like, did this work with them? Exactly, yes. It is hard when to get through those original, those initial emotions of that uncoupling though, that messy first part. It's very hard. That's such a hard part.
It really is. And so painful. Yeah. So painful. Usually for both people. Even the person that wants. Wants to split up more. Yeah. I think that's been thankful for them. I think I've had this misnomer, and I don't know if it was because I was the one that asked for the divorce and my relationship specifically, or it's just, this is the way our culture thinks about it.
But if you've asked for it, like you wanted this, you're gonna, you know, you've made the choice. Everything's okay. You should be happy. Yeah. No, it's hard, but it's so hard. It's hard. So hard, hard. Right. I know. I, I still have grief from being in a relationship with somebody for 15 years and raising kids with them and, you know, it's a lot.
Uncoupling is hard for [00:17:00] everybody in the process. It is. It is so true. And, you know, and then there, there's that blame thing, right? So you get blamed if you're the one that wants the divorce or and you know, that we just have to move beyond that. Yeah. And usually, I think, I don't know if usual is the right word, but many of the times people can move beyond that.
It just takes time. Yeah. Time and work and healing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think as as queer couples specifically say you were in a queer relationship, then there's emotional and psychological hurdles for sure. If you've gone from a straight relationship to coming out as a queer person after being married.
I think that's a thing we're seeing a lot more over the last five years, you know, growing groups of late bloomer lesbians and people are transitioning after their marriage and stuff like that. But I wanna talk specifically about people who are queer couples who were married as a openly queer relationship.
Maybe they got [00:18:00] married right, right away when marriage became legal. Or maybe they've been together for 30 years and got married, whatever it is. Are there specific emotional hurdles that you see for those couples when they get decide to get divorced? Yeah, I think there are some special situations just because.
You know, we've had to come out and we had to like, tell our families and tell our friend, like, it's just like create a, there's so much that went into it that it's, I it's more than embarrassing. Yeah. You know, that this relationship didn't work out. It's, I wanna use that word, but that's just like, not even enough, but it's kind of devastating to, in a different way.
To say, yeah, I did make this choice to marry this person and be with this person, and it didn't work out. It seems like it's more loaded. Yeah. Like, you know, people [00:19:00] will, are so sensitive, I think after the whole coming out process. So I think that's the biggest hurdle, honestly. That's different.
Yeah. I mean, it's obviously a hurdle for everybody. To, to split up and lots of people of every, you know, gender and every sexual orientation and, you know, whatever, feel shame and feel that they've failed. And, you know, I really think that we have to move beyond that too. But but I think it's worse in a way for queer couples.
Yeah. I think that's, that you have to stand in yourself, in your, in your personal decisions in a different way when you make these choices as, as a queer couple, right. As the coming out, as going beyond the mainstream, living an authentic life. That's not the typical life. And Right. There is, so You're right.
So much shame in that. So much of this. Heteronormative training that we have in that too, that so [00:20:00] sad that it comes up. Even if you have to make the choice to get married and divorce, and then you have to add that extra boundary of, you know, extra barrier, hurdle, whatever you wanna call it. All these words.
Yeah. Absolutely. Get over it. Yeah, I think it's just, you know, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of work to come out and to be your authentic self, you know, as you were saying. And part of that a lot of times is saying, and I wanna be with this person. Yeah. And that is sometimes the catalyst for people coming out.
Not always. And, and I think in these days, honestly, like, so, you know, I'm in my sixties, so it was pretty different when I was growing up. But I feel that kids, young people, young adults they do have more support now. They do. A lot of times their parents are like, oh, okay. Or I'm not surprised, or whatever, you know, whereas when, when, you know, when I was young was like, what?
It was [00:21:00] just not even, it's not, wasn't part of the social framework. Yeah. So we move forward in a lot of ways, supporting couples, and now we need to reframe the idea of that divorce is a choice, not a failure. Yeah. And especially as a, as a queer person too. Like not adding in that additional shame of the fact that you decided to get divorced.
'cause for you, it's also a choice, not a failure. And it's also hard. And you need support. Not shaming. Yeah. Not to be judged. I think collectively we need more support for people who are getting divorced Across the board. Yeah. Across the board. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And to just understand that it's a very difficult, fraught decision
that people. Don't make lightly. Yeah. I don't know if there's somebody that does make it lightly, but I've never met them yet. Yeah, I know. What would be a light [00:22:00] one? I dunno. I dunno. I dunno. Trying to think. It's hard for everybody to make that choice. It's true. I think it is. I mean, I think that there might be some people that have been married a very short time that just go like, what did I do?
This was really stupid and didn't make any sense, or whatever. Like, I guess that could be lightly. But not, but most people, they just plan to be together forever. That's what they say, their vows, you know, they make a promise. And people take that promise very seriously and they don't break that promise unless they really feel like they have to.
It's so true. It's so true. And oftentimes stay in a marriage longer than they should because they don't wanna break that promise. They don't wanna. Right. I totally agree with that. And also not. Knowing, you know, like being at that precipice Right. For a long time. Like, is there a way we can make this work?
Maybe we could. And not knowing that, you know, at some point you're just gonna be like [00:23:00] miserable if you stay. Yeah. It's gonna be terrible. Yeah. What do you see when you're working with couples that are going through this process of thinking of getting divorced or staying together? What do you see are some signs that they've come to you for because they're realizing that it's maybe time to end their marriage and to grow outside of it?
So some signs I didn't, I really feel that's a personal decision and you know, I, I think that some of the questions that people wanna ask themselves are whether they've worked on it have they thought about what their part is. I think that a lot of times people come in with a lot of blaming of the other person.
Most people, a lot of times, blame each other at that point. I think that you know, I, I actually don't know the answer to that question. Like, what are the external signs? And I think the internal signs people have to start to recognize for themselves that they [00:24:00] just don't feel like it can work.
And they've tried really hard. Yeah. How do you do that? How do you, do you trust yourself and, and make that decision for yourself? So that's a great question. One thing that I do is this thing that's like, it's only about, oh, I think it's 15 years old. It's called Discernment counseling. And it's a one to five SES session process to help people get clarity and confidence in their decision and understand how they got to the point that divorce was on the table.
And so you basically, you sign up for one session at a time. During that session, I meet with the people separately to I meet with them together a little bit and then separately to kind of see what's going on with them, what are they thinking, what do they think happened, what do they feel is possible, is it possible to work this out?
Is it not possible? And people say many, many different things during that process. And you know, [00:25:00] sometimes it's a process of, usually it's a process where one person's really leaning out of the marriage and the other person's trying to save it. And they person who's leaning out of the marriage especially sometimes doesn't think that their partner can make the changes that they may need to make in order for them to be happy in the marriage.
So that's one of the questions that people come with is, You know, I need this person to, you know, get sober, let's say. Or I need this person to be more independent or I need, you know, whatever they may need the other person to do in order to be happier. And then we also talk about what do they need to do?
What do they need to do in any relationship that they might be in? So let's say they don't save the marriage and they do get divorced. They're probably gonna be with someone else. Are they gonna bring the same behaviors to the next relationship? So we try to identify what are those as well for both people.
And then, you know, [00:26:00] whether they want to and can change. Sometimes it has to do with do they have children? A lot of people really try harder if they have children because they are afraid of hurting them. And, you know, divorce does hurt children. So I think that's fair to be considering that children can get through it.
And we can help them get through it. And as a couple, if you decide to divorce, you can certainly help them get through it. And they can be fine, but it is hard for them too, and they don't get to make the decision. So I think it's fair that couples try harder when they have children. Yeah. But sometimes it's just not gonna work.
So they so we spend each session and then each session they decide if they want another session up to the point of five sessions. And at that point they either have a decision or we, they keep doing what they're doing for a while and they can come back and do it again if they want, or that they can, you know, if they don't [00:27:00] make a decision.
So the decision is gonna be at that point it's either to divorce, to put divorce off the table and work really hard in couples therapy for six months or to keep doing what they're doing. And those, so those are the three paths that we talk about in the discernment process. Okay. So the three paths you're saying are if you're decide you wanna stay together, six good months, intensive months of couples therapy.
Yes. Okay. You can also, and, and we say six months because you know it's gonna go up and down during that period. Yeah. So we really don't want you saying like, we had a really bad week, we're splitting up. No, you signed on to six months. Let's see if there can be progress. And at the end of that point, you can continue the therapy or you can decide divorce or you, you know, whatever your decision is at that point.
But it gives you a chance. Yeah. Have you seen couples going through that six month process that have been successful in turning things [00:28:00] around? Yeah, about 40%. 40%. That's a pretty good percentage. It's a good percentage. It's a good percentage. And if they and I, I think it's 40%, I might have this wrong, I forgot to write this down, but I think 40%.
Decide to work on it, 40% divorce and 20% just keep doing what they're doing. Okay. Which is also the right thing to do for many people. So doesn't, it's not no judgment. Yeah. So keep doing what you're doing means that you're going back to daily life without couples therapy, without, you know, making any big in interventions in your relationship, anything like that?
Well, there may be interventions and sometimes the process of the discernment counseling helps people, you know, make some changes. And so they may go back to doing what they're doing, so to speak, but try to in some different way. And that's, you know, that's fair enough. They may have had you know, some realizations about their own behavior.
[00:29:00] Yeah. And I think do you think in those successful couples that the intensive therapy has to be both are in it to move forward and to change and to grow in order for it to, the relationship to stay together? A hundred percent. And that's why the discernment process is really helpful for couples who are on the brink of divorce.
Because if you go to couples therapy and both people aren't in it, it's not gonna work. Yeah. It's not gonna be effective. Yeah. And so it really brings that question. It calls the question, it's like, are you both gonna be in it? 'cause if they aren't one of the things that we do at the end of the discernment process, if someone, if at a, if at any point they decide they wanna go to the couple's therapy and work on it is what we call a personal agenda for change.
Okay. So they actually write down a personal agenda for what they wanna change about themselves, and they're gonna bring that into the couple's therapy and be totally engaged. [00:30:00] If they're not totally engaged, then I've failed. Yeah. Because that is the point of the discernment, if they're gonna go that path.
And if they go the divorce path, then we hope that the discernment will help them have a more peaceful and more I dunno what the word is, settled divorce. That they've come to it, they understand what happened, they understand where they're going with it, and they're not so devastated.
And I mean, they still might be, but they're, they've come to a different place with it. Right. It's less of a surprise for somebody, or it's not happening just because there was this huge incident or, you know, whatever. Right. And they can see that the partner that wanted the divorce more worked on it and thought about it and put effort into like, wait, can we do this?
Or can we, can we save this marriage? And Yeah. And that helps too, I think. 'cause sometimes people feel like, you know, this person just threw me away. Which is really not really the case. Right. I, I don't wanna say [00:31:00] ever, but hardly ever. Right. It seems like in most cases if that was the case, then there's some psychological or mental health issue going on where somebody can just let somebody go out of a relationship.
It's like not human nature, it's our ability as humans to be able to do that. Yeah. It might look like that though. It might look like that. Like let's say one person has an affair or, you know, and, and that happens frequently, that someone has an affair and then they say, yeah, I'm, I don't wanna be in this marriage.
Then the person can feel very thrown away, but it didn't come out of nowhere. Right. You know, that's, that's the part they may or may not get to work on if there's a divorce at that point. But the reality is that it didn't come out of nowhere. Yeah. I think there's this idea too, I was just thinking about as you were talking about it, there was a lot of times where, I know in my relationship where one of us would be like Convi trying to convince the other one to change enough for the other person.
[00:32:00] Right. So we'll like be going through this process of like, we really love each other, we know we need to stay together for the kids. And he stayed, try to stay together for each other, but then there might be a point where I'm like, he needs to change for me. He needs to fix this for me. And then he's like, she needs to fix this for me.
And it seems like in Yeah, those cases it never, you can never fix the other person enough for your relationship. Right. They have to be in it. They have to come to that themselves. Yeah. And you know, you can talk to them about it and you know, it's just like you know, I worked in addictions for a very long time and people want their partner to quit drinking or using, and they're, you know, they can be pretty naggy about it and try a lot of different things.
Try to convince them. And I think those things, you know, they're normal too. Like of course you're gonna try to convince them to change. And if they come to it, then they might change. You know, you might. That might happen. But there is a point where you're kind just spinning your wheels. Yeah. And the person's not there.
[00:33:00] So what, whatever the reason is, whatever the change you want them to make. I think there's, they have to want to Change is hard. It is so hard. Right. It's so hard. And you have to have a reason to want to. Right. Right. You right. You have to be motivated. And you know, and that's where couples think that they should be the motivation for the other person to change.
Right. But it's more complicated than that. Ooh. Yeah. I'm not enough of motivation for you to change, then why am I in this marriage? Kind of idea of, I felt that, I felt that. Of course. I think that's a typical, a typical feeling. I think that's really normal that we do feel that. It's oftentimes that we feel that, but it's much more complicated because the change that we're at, I mean, when we wanna change for ourselves, we have trouble with it.
Yeah. Like, just like, you know, why you wanna lose weight, you wanna go to the gym, you wanna, you know, stop, you get off your phone more, you wanna, [00:34:00] you know, be nicer to your kids. You wanna like all the different things like little, I'm just like saying like kind of little things that Yeah. Many people wanna do and we don't succeed.
Yeah. Yep. Right. I mean, I've been trying to start a meditation, daily meditation practice for years and I've probably done it like six times in there. It's hard. Great example. Great example for myself. Yeah. Right? And so what, you know, so you have to like understand that for all of us, Little changes and big changes are really hard and we have to be pretty motivated.
And you know, sometimes it just clicks in and we're able to do it, you know, but we don't really sometimes understand why. Yeah. So if the A couple's going through the process and they're now making the decision to decision to uncouple Yes. What would you, how would you help them in the first few steps of the process?
Or what would the first few steps of the process be for them? So [00:35:00] obviously they would need to tell each other that might be first, or maybe they would consult an attorney to just find out, like what would it be, like, what would it look like? There's a thing called divorce Options, and I recommend that people, if you're in this position of considering divorce, that you go to the website, divorce options.org.
And there are free on Zoom. I, it's not in every state, but it's in many places in California and it's also in some other states. We volunteer volunteers like myself usually come as a, as a a team. I do it with a lawyer and a financial person. And, and I'm not just me, but, you know, many people do this and walk you through what, what is required in divorce, what the, what the legal requirements are, some of the emotional things, some of the things about the kids your divorce processes.
So again, [00:36:00] like I said at the beginning, like do it yourself, mediation, traditional representation, collaborative divorce. Those are the processes that we talk about. And what do they look like and why would you choose one of them so that you can help you think about your choices? Excuse me. Getting support from the people that you feel the closest to.
Sometimes it's helpful to, at the very beginning, check with your partner about who you're gonna talk to about it so that it doesn't become a big gossipy thing around that you, you choose carefully. Like, I'm gonna talk to my sister or my best friend, or I'm gonna talk to, you know, whatever. And get that agreement that those are the people you're gonna talk to to begin with.
You want to make the process as least contentious as possible. I don't think that's said that very well, but as peaceful as proce a process as possible, you wanna keep your relationships with your friends and family, [00:37:00] and if you have children number one is protecting the children. And that's the most important thing that you're gonna do.
Remember that this is someone you chose. Like we said before, this is not your enemy. This is not the devil. Give them respect and care. As you go through this process. Remember what you loved about them and why you chose them. And so, you know, you might go to the Divorce Options Workshop.
Again, it's on Zoom and it's free. It's like a three hour thing, two to three hours of like understanding how to do divorce, but then also getting your support wherever you need to get support and talking with each other about it as much as possible. It's great if both of you can go to the divorce options and if you're not in a state that offers it, you could still go to it, but you have to really speak to a lawyer in your state.
About the process because it might be different, but probably gonna be a [00:38:00] lot the same, but there might be differences that are really important. So it sounds like a great resource. A super great resource. Yeah, it is. Because a lot of times people are like, you know, I wanna go to an attorney, but I don't wanna pay, you know, three to $500 to find out what my options are.
Yeah. And so that gives you a little bit of an overview of the process and some ways to start thinking about the process. There may be something in your state as well. I think it's the Secretary of State in California, maybe in other places as well, where they have information online that you can look up.
Be careful when looking online that it's a, your state and b, that it's current. It's one of my gripes about looking stuff up online is that a lot of things are not dated. So you might be looking at something from 10 years ago and you have no way of knowing and the laws may have changed.
That's very true. I do know that we have in Michigan a, [00:39:00] a way to get divorced in Michigan too, and it's a.gov site. I could put that in the show notes too, but I think there, there are, I'm sure other states have these, but you're right. You have to make sure that it's a state resource or our, you know, friend of the court resource or county clerk resource or whatever.
Right. Right. And then they'll have the forms and tell you more information usually on that website as well. But you, you probably will want at least a consultation with a lawyer, even if you're to do it yourself to make sure you're doing it correctly. And may, you know, if you have nothing, like if you, you don't own anything, you don't have any financial assets, you don't have any retirement plans, you don't have any children, you don't, you're, you're gonna be more likely to be able to do it yourself.
But as soon as you start to throw in some complications, like, I have a retirement plan, or I get RSUs, or I get stock options, or I get or I have, I own a home, or I owned a [00:40:00] home before we were together, but now we've been paying the mortgage together. Like, it starts to get a little bit more complicated and you probably need help.
Yeah. And most people, for most people it's a little bit more complicated. And of course with children in California, you need to say how you're gonna share your children. So I don't like to personally talk about custody because I don't feel like we own them, but I like to talk about how we're gonna share care of them and decisions about them and where they're going to be.
And that's another thing that I do wanna mention is how do you tell your children Yes, please. Because that's super important. And children remember how they were told children of all ages remember how they were told, and it's really important to them. So what we recommend is that you tell them together, that you talk about it in advance, so that you figure out who's gonna say what and how you're gonna tell them that.
You [00:41:00] tell them something extremely non blaming that you, you know, say that you worked on it and it was really, it's been really hard and that you, you know, really loved each other, but you're not gonna live together anymore, but you're. Still gonna be their parents. And that you're still gonna love them and that you're both gonna love them and you're both gonna take care of them if there's three of you, all of you, or however many of you there is.
And that you want them to have a good relationship with their other parent and that, that is super important and that you're, they're always gonna have that and that parents don't divorce their children, so you're, you know, that's never gonna happen. And it's also not their fault. Yeah. And it's really important to tell them really, like, maybe multiple times they didn't cause it and they can't fix it.
And it's not their fault and it's not about them. And that you both still really love them and you're still gonna, you [00:42:00] know, Be their parents. Their parents. And then the other thing that kids really wanna know is like the nuts and bolts. Will they be able to still go to the same school? Will they be moving?
Will they have two homes? Will they, where will they be? Any information that you have about what's gonna happen with them, they want to know, especially if they're, you know, anywhere between five and 30, I dunno, whatever. Over five. Over five. I mean, if they're young, if they're adults, or young adults or, or even teens, they still need to be told really carefully.
And you still wanna tell them together. And don't tell them any details that someone cheated or, you know, those type of details. They don't need to know. That's adult information that's between the two of you. What they just need to know is that you decided you can't make it work anymore. And you know that if they are older, sometimes they will ask those questions and it's really fine to say I don't wanna talk about [00:43:00] that, that that's between us and that that's, I mean, I wouldn't say it in these words, but none of your business.
Yeah. They would say Nya, the kids would say Nun. Yeah, nun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nun. Yeah. I don't know that I would say that. 'cause you wanna be a little serious, but, yeah. And there are some cases when you're telling your kids where maybe one of the couples does not want to tell the kids, does not want to get divorced, does not want to.
What do you do in that case? Well, you do your best to tell them that it would be better for the kids if they were willing to tell you with that. Tell them with you. If they refuse or if they're incarcerated or, you know, If they can't, they can't. Yeah. You know, for whatever reason. If they can't, they can't.
Then you do your best and then you support that parent when you tell the children and you say you know, sorry, your other parent won't be able to talk with you about this today. [00:44:00] Yeah. And maybe they will be able to in the future. They love you and they want everything good for you, and I'm gonna support your relationship with them and they're gonna support your relationship with me.
Yeah. And, you know, hopefully that'll be true. I don't think it's great to lie if the person's really not going to then I wouldn't really say anything about that. But because we hope that that will change, but you don't need to share that with them. You know, like if they're not gonna be supportive of your relationship with the kids.
I wouldn't say that to them. But I would just hope that's gonna change. Right. You can be honest though, about the fact that you would be support, I mean Yes. You don't have to be talk bad about them in the process, even if they didn't wanna participate. Exactly. And even if they're incarcerated. So you just think like, okay, so one of your parents is in prison, we're getting divorced.
I want you to know that they love you. Yeah. And I'm gonna do everything I can to support your relationship with them. Because they're still your parent. Yeah. And [00:45:00] you know, you don't need to get into any details about, you know, why they're whatever. I don't know what they know about that piece.
Yeah. But you still support them no matter what it is. Or they have, they have an illness sometimes with addiction. That's what we say to children. They have an illness that once they take a drink they can't stop. And they still really love you, but they can't take care of you right now. Yeah. Do you think in some of those scenarios, and I know I've seen it with, with our kids is in, with other kids, is that when there's a divorce like that, so say there's a, a parent who has an addiction or has a mental illness, or maybe there's a parent that didn't choose that's really much more upset that the kiddo can take on thinking they need to support the other parent.
Oh, a hundred percent. That happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really tricky situation. Because you can tell them, and you should, should tell them that you know, you're the [00:46:00] adults and they don't need to take care of you. And that the other parent, even though they're really devastated right now and they're really struggling, or they're having this problem or that problem, or whatever it may be it's not your job to help them with that.
Yeah. They're still gonna think it's, I mean, I don't think that you can, I don't think words are gonna fix that. Yeah. But you can tell them anyway. And if the other parent that's ha even if the other parent who's having the problems can tell them, that would be good too. Yeah. But it's still, they still may do it and you just, you know, there's, what are you gonna do?
Yeah. Hold them in those really hard feelings when, right. Yeah. Right. I mean, what else can you do? It's hard. Exactly. And you know, to just say it's so hard that someone that you love and that loves you is going through this and can't be there for you right now. Or whatever it may be. Or if they aren't supporting your relationship, that's tough too.[00:47:00]
'cause they can turn, you know, there is like that parental alienation thing where they can an angry parent can turn the children against the other parent. And that does happen a fair amount. I think it happens. I don't know. I wanna think it happens less than queer relationships. I don't know if that's true.
I don't know what the statistics are. But you just do your best to say, well, they love you too. You still support them even though they're not supporting you. Yeah. There's so many hard things you have to do in divorce and you're talking about this, right? That's all I keep thinking is like all of these hard moments, you have to be able to explain it to your kids while you have to be able to explain it to yourself.
Well, you have to be able to grow yourself through it. You, you know, through a hard time. If you didn't choose a divorce, you have to be the, you have to heal through that and do the right thing for your kids and yeah. Ah, it's so much, it's so much, it's so much, but it's doable so much. It's more doable than.
But then when you stack it up like that, [00:48:00] I know it does all feel like that though. When you're in the moment. Sometimes though you're in, of course, when you're in that like messy part of the first part of uncoupling and like trying to dig your way out of this hole, it feels like there's just never gonna end.
It's really hard. And you know, one thing that I think about also with children is About if you, if you had your children when they were first born or when they were babies, which again, a lot of us may have adopted our children when they were older or didn't, they didn't come to our family somehow till they were older.
But if you did have them when they were really little, and actually even when they are older, like I just think about like, oh, they were throwing up all night, or they woke up a bazillion times and I'm so exhausted and I just can't do it another minute. But you do. You do. You go take care. You go clean their bed, you change their sheets, you hold them, you wipe them up.
Or maybe they're eight and they're having, you know, terrible tantrums. And I, I remember well, my [00:49:00] kids have been variously hard in different ways, but my my older son was like maybe two or three or something like that, and he just like laid down on the sidewalk and said, I'm not going like. Okay, now what do I do?
You know, or, and there's just so many different situations that you deal with, with your children and you just do it. You do it as a parent because you love them and you know they need it, and they you, you have to do it. And this is like that too. Yeah. It's just the same thing. You just, you do it even though you're exhausted and you're upset and you're scared and you're tired and you're not sure you're doing it right and
you know, all of that. It's, you still, you do it for yourself and you do it for them. Yeah. And I've also learned, I know in my codependent self has struggled with trying to keep them from feeling the heart of the divorce and trying to keep them from, you know, control the situation as much as possible so they're not hurt by it.
Right. But they're still grieving the same way we [00:50:00] are, but I also like to. And what's helped me get through that and not do that for them and hold them in the sadness and let them have their feelings and all of those things, is also thinking about the fact that, you know, we don't know how our life is gonna change at any moment.
Right? Yeah. We could have had a, we could have added a third kid, we could have, lost forbid, lost a, a family member. We could have lost jobs. We could have had to move. There's like all of these devastating situations that could potentially happen in a kid's life and that we don't have any control over.
And just because I'm the one that made the choice about the divorce or because we're choosing as parents to make this big change for them, that doesn't mean it's any different, right? Like, we can help them through it in the same way as we would if one of their parents was sick or if something happened in another way, or adding a kid.
Sometimes adding another sibling is really, really hard for a kiddo. Yes. Yes. Hundred percent. Yeah, I totally agree. That's a great way to look at it really, Tara. I really appreciate you thinking about it that way. [00:51:00] It's like this is another, you know, they're gonna have all those other things. They're gonna happen too.
You know, or some, some permutation. People don't get through this life unscathed. Right. You know, and your kids aren't either, and you can't protect them from everything. Yeah. But you can separate your feelings from theirs, which is good. Yeah. Right. They're going through Yes. Something a little bit different than what you're going through.
In some ways easier, in some ways harder. And just, yeah. Like you said, hold them in their feelings and put our, and that's the hard part, like putting ours aside a little bit. Yeah. While we are holding them to really hear them and not get it confused with ours. 'cause we have a different grief.
Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. We could talk about co-parenting all day. I have so many questions. Yeah. Co-parenting is super important. And can be really challenging. [00:52:00] Yes. And you know, it's one of the things that that I work on with people a lot, and it changes usually over time as people perhaps get new parent, new partners.
It changes. And also as the children grow up, you know, what they need when they're five is completely different than what they need when they're 15. Right, right. It's just a, it's a whole different story. So we we have to adapt to them. Them. Yeah. We do. We're always adapting to our kids. It's a lifetime of adaption, adapt, adaptation.
It really is. It really is. Yeah. My kids right now are 26 and 30. It's like completely different and sometimes harder and sometimes easier. Right. You know, because it's all really outta my control. But, Know a lot more outta my control than it was when they were younger. Of course. Can really see that.
But you still just want good things for them and wanna be close to them. And you want, you know, there's so much that you want. Yeah. And there's nothing, you know, [00:53:00] one thing we are know for sure, for all of us is that there's gonna be change. We're gonna grow in our lives. We're never the same. Right.
Ev no matter who we are, we're, we're never the sames throughout our, our entire life's. That's so true. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. And they're, and them, them and us, and we really see it with them. You know, in a way that sometimes we don't see it with ourselves as much can sneak up on us. Yeah. Like, you know, I was 40 like a minute ago and now
like, wait, what happened? How did that happen? I know, and, and in some ways that's true with them too. I'm like, they were little a minute ago. I know I just sent my oldest off to middle school this morning Oh. And for the first time. And so he is going in this big, huge new school and he is walking in there and he is six foot tall already.
Wow. And I'm just looking at him like oh my goodness. Like they get to this spot in their life where he's gone through all these really hard things over the last two years. I mean in his whole life that you know, these hard things that he is been through and ways he's developed. But I'm so proud of him 'cause he is [00:54:00] making it there.
We were there with all me and my partner and his dad and his brother all cheering him on. You know, it was amazing. That's great moment to be able to get to that. I mean, it takes work on the kiddos part and the parents' part and holding each other through it and getting there and. It's a really good thing.
And those tough, hard years, those middle school years, they can be really hard. Yeah. Ooh. It's gonna be a lot. You start to get hormones. And then they're getting, and they're getting exposed to all this stuff that you're like, you know, you had no idea about. Yeah. You know, you, you think, you know, but it's so different.
Yeah. And you think you went through it, but it's totally different these days and Oh my gosh. It's, it's, yeah. I remember my son saying that some kid he was talking to in middle school said he hadn't been home for three days. Like, and that his, you know, my son was like, what does that even mean?[00:55:00]
Yeah. I was like, yeah, people have really different lives. So it's, they do just, they get exposed to stuff that you're like, wait, I don't even want him to know about that. Yeah. They do learn about it, the world. They do. And they have, they have your amazing support. So they, they're gonna be okay. And you just have to, you know, know that somehow you're gonna get through any hard parts that are probably gonna crop up.
Yeah, for sure. We have talked about so many things and I think we've been through, you know, conversations. There's so much good information. I'm trying to soak it in so much. Good. I appreciate it. I'm wondering if you might be able to leave listeners with, if you're thinking about you know, choosing the way you want to get divorced or developing what your relationship or co-parenting relationship looks like after divorce, what is something that you would say to them that's really important to keep in mind as they do go through that process?
So [00:56:00] there's a bunch of stuff I would say. Yeah. Like one thing is if you have children, put them first and just like you did when they were. Waking up all night and you had to get up with them, put them first, do the hard thing. You know, be, be kind. Remember that you chose this person at one point and that they deserve respect and care.
I mean, your child, child too, but the, the person that you're divorcing that they are, you know, just as deserving of respect and care as you are. And you are deserving of respect and care as well. Get support, figure out who's gonna support you and who's not gonna say things that hurt you. Just was in a situation where the friends of quote unquote friends were, you know, are telling bad messages about the, the soon to be ex-spouse.[00:57:00]
To one of the partners. So that's the friend who's saying, oh, the this person's doing this and that. I saw it on Facebook and saw it on Instagram or whatever. Like, they're doing all these terrible things. Like that is not helpful. That is not a friend. Yeah. A friend is the person that says, we're gonna get through this honey.
And comes and sits with you and brings you tea and says, you know, what do you need and how can I help? It's not the person that starts to talk about your ex. It's the person who says, can I watch your kids for a little while, while you go for a walk? That's the person that offers you the support that really feels supportive and makes you feel better.
Yeah. Not makes you feel worse. And that, like you were saying about the children that can hold you in your pain, you know that you can, you can be yourself with. Talk about what, you know, you can talk about how angry you are at your ex and that doesn't mean they're gonna pick up that [00:58:00] gauntlet with you.
Right. Ooh, those are, that's really good advice. I was just thinking about the support you need when you go through a divorce and how it's so important to have at least one solid foundation or somebody secure and safe to go through that with. Whether it is somebody that comes to, they don't have to be there for everything for you.
They don't have, do paperwork for you or anything else. They need to give you a hug when you're crying. Be there to take your kids for you, you know, that sort of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, that's what's so great about your your program here is that people can get support from each other as they're going through divorce.
Queer divorce is like, you know, you need, you need specialized support. Yeah. In a way. You might you, you might. Yeah. Our Facebook group is growing online. There's more and more people connecting in there and offering each other. I mean, just sharing stories about what you've been through is so good [00:59:00] sometimes to hear from others.
Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't even have to be a friend that you've had, you know, it can be other people too. Yeah. Now is the, in this age of social media and stuff, like there's ways to get support. Yeah. And to just feel that. So that, I think that's really fabulous thing that you're doing and I hope that people take advantage of it.
Me too. If people want to find other you or your resources. You mentioned divorce options.org. Is there anywhere else you would send them online? So collaborative divorce just Google it is a really good resource. Okay. If they're interested in discernment counseling, they can. Google that discernment counseling.
It has its own thing. The guy that started, his name is Bill Doherty. He's in Minnesota, but he has a whole thing with like a network of people that are on his list. Okay. So the collaborative divorce movement, it's also called [01:00:00] collaborative process. Wait God, I can't even think, sorry, I'm losing my brain.
The collaborative divorce thing is also international, so it is in your state. Okay. And there may, may be close to you. And the thing that's also really great about it is that even if you don't decide to do a collaborative divorce, getting the attorneys that are on that are trained in collaborative, they're gonna be your family law attorneys who are not gonna try to light a flame and make your situation worse.
Yeah. Because that is a problem. It, I don't know how common it is, but some divorce attorneys, you know, they make more money if they make you fight more right then. And that sucks. Yeah. Not okay for everybody, you know, so you don't want that attorney. I used to say to people like, get a shark now. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no.
Don't get a article. What was I thinking? No, get a peacemaker. Yeah. So but you do [01:01:00] find like amazing professionals in that network. So there's an International Academy of Collaborative Professionals, I A C P, and they have probably lists of professionals and also just in your state. Fabulous.
So that's where I would go. Thank you so much for being here and offering guidance and how we can create a peaceful divorce and reconfigure our families and. Peaceful ways. I appreciate that so much. Yeah, you're so welcome and I'm so glad you're doing this as well. So thank you for having me.
Thank you for joining us for the Queer Divorce Club podcast. We hope that our discussions have provided you with valuable insights and support throughout your journey. If you are a member of the LGBTQIA Plus community and find yourself contemplating divorce currently going through the process or in the process of rebuilding your life after divorce, we invite you to join the Queer Divorce Club, connect with others who have similar experiences, and find a sense of [01:02:00] community by visiting queer divorce club.com.
There you can join support groups tailored to your needs and connect with individuals who understand the unique challenges you may be facing. Before we wrap up, we'd like to ask for your support. If you've enjoyed our podcast and find it helpful, please take a moment to show us some love. Wherever you listen to podcasts, your reviews and ratings mean the world to us.
They not only ensure that you never miss an episode, but also help others discover our podcast for the first time. Remember, you are not alone on this journey. We're here to provide you with the tools, knowledge and support you need to live a healthy and vibrant life, both during and beyond your divorce.
And as always, remember that each day you're doing your best for yourself and your family. And that's nothing short of amazing. Thank you to bungalow Heaven for providing the music for this podcast. We'll see you all next time.[01:03:00]