Episode 13: Jonelle Tunney, Transitioning and Divorce
In this episode, Tera has the privilege of speaking with Jonelle Tunney, a licensed professional counselor, transwoman, and divorcee, who generously shares her personal journey of transitioning while navigating the challenging terrain of divorce. Jonelle's story is a poignant narrative of resilience and growth.
During the conversation, Jonelle offers a wealth of insights drawn from her experiences of simultaneously managing significant life transitions over the past five years. She candidly discusses the lessons she's learned, both from her transition and her divorce, shedding light on what worked for her and what didn't. Additionally, Jonelle opens up about her co-parenting journey with her ex-wife, providing valuable perspectives and guidance.
Jonelle's journey is filled with invaluable gems of wisdom, and we are excited to share her story with you.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Jonelle Tunney
Jonelle Tunney is currently a licensed professional counselor with River City Psychological Services in downtown Grand Rapids. Jonelle was born as "Jon", a boy at birth, in the late 1960's. She grew up in Cadillac, Michigan and went on to earn teaching and counseling degrees, serving as both a teacher and school counselor for over 20 years. From an early age, Jonelle strongly identified with feeling feminine and womanly inside, but she hid this from the world and even denied it within herself for decades. Meanwhile, she got married and had twins and did her best to be the person she thought the world needed her to be. Shortly before turning 50, around 2018, Jonelle found herself with a loving family and dozens of good friends, with a successful career, and she was almost completely miserable. This began her process of transition, which started with self-acceptance and exploration, included a couple years of group and individual therapy, and culminated in an explosion of personal changes that included divorce, retirement from the school system, selling her home of 20 years, hormone therapy, surgery, and living full-time as a transgender female. It was as if the turbulence within her matched the turbulence around her, including a global pandemic and major political unrest. Today, she finds herself happier and more alive and awake than ever, still great friends with her ex-wife, with almost universal acceptance and support from her family and friends, and engaging with a career as a therapist that she finds incredibly rewarding and meaningful. She works with people of a variety of ages and needs, including treatments for depression, anxiety, and trauma, as well as a particular specialty in supporting those with queer identities and gender-related issues.
You can find Jonelle online at rivercitypsychological.com.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Hi, Jonelle, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you, Tera. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to get to know your background today and the different transitions you've been through and all the, your background around divorce. I think All that you'll have to say will be super helpful for our listeners.
And we may have some that relate to your story, and so I'm excited for that You're willing to share with us. So thank you for that. Oh yeah. Again, thank you for le having me. And yeah, certainly my friends. Tell me I, I'm pretty prone to sharing my story, so this is right in my wheelhouse I guess.
So thank you. Perfect. Well, thank you for sharing it with us. Can you get us started on the story a little bit? Just give us a glimpse at your personal background with divorce and where you're at today. Sure. So starting with today, I am a transgender woman who is very, very, very, [00:01:00] very, very single. So I use a lot of on that because it's Been three years since my divorce.
And over the last few months I've really opened up to the idea of dating again. I have no clue what I'm doing or how to do it, but like I'm you know, in that process, in that journey, making myself available and open-minded about that. Before that you know, the Queer Divorce Club is a really neat idea, by the way, Tera.
I'm glad that it exists. And you might say that my queerness caused my divorce, so I'm kind of the hyphen between those two words. In, in, in my case, gender identity. My marriage was quite cis and straight, at least to outward appearances. And I guess the background of my divorce probably is a story that goes back literally 50 years.
And I was married for 21 years. But when I was young probably in my elementary school ages, I made two big discoveries. One was more towards middle school, but basically one discovery [00:02:00] was that I felt like a girl on the inside. But I didn't know what to do with that. And then when I hit puberty, I made another discovery.
Is that I was, I. Attracted to men, and I didn't know what to do with that one either. I grew up in a small town in northern Michigan. It was very conservative. We didn't have a single queer person out in our high school of a graduated class of about 250 people. So I went about repressing and suppressing all that, you know?
And so I tried my best to fit in the man box and eventually as I was pushing 30 one of the holy grails of being in the man box was to have a marriage to assist woman. And so I met a fantastic lady. I still think she's fantastic today. We're still really great friends. My ex-wife and I. And we were married for 21 years and we had a lot of ups and downs, but more ups and downs.
And we have two wonderful children who are 10th graders this year. A [00:03:00] boy and a girl, twins, and Through the process of our marriage, I guess the girl inside of me kept knocking on the door of consciousness. She just or me just kept being insistent that this was an identity that really resonated for me.
So for all of my adult life and teenage life, I was a cross-dresser sort of in secret. And those were moments where I could see myself in sort of a genuine, authentic way, but they were kind of few and far between. And my ex-wife at first was very Open to it. She was like, oh, I've been bicurious.
I'd like to see you as a woman. But once she saw how into it, I was, I think it became a little threatening for her. And so I kind of went like a don't ask, don't tell policy. And I, I still remember, I can envision these blue bins in the basement where all my women's clothes were, and I would like keep them.
Sort of like, and so I kept it very private. And about six years ago I came to a [00:04:00] new level of self-acceptance and understanding that I was a transgender female. And at that point my ex-wife at that point was like, oh great, we can both wear white wedding dresses and knew our vs. And I thought, oh yes, what girl doesn't wanna be in a white wedding dress at some point in their life?
And so I. I was really into that idea, but over time we decided that her and I To be authentic. We couldn't be together. Yeah. Basically we, we came to the conclusion that we both wanted the same thing. We wanted to be women and love a man, and that just wasn't gonna work. And so after about a year of sort of trying to hang in there with things, we began the process of what we called Conscious uncoupling, which I know Gwyneth Paltrow got slammed for when she came out with that idea about 10, 20 years ago.
I think she was breaking up with Chris Martin from that band, Coldplay, but they said, oh, we're gonna do this with Grace and we're going to, we're gonna just consciously like, split up, but like, it's not gonna be fraught with all these things.[00:05:00] I'm here to tell you it's hard, it's crazy and it's a lot of work and Yep.
So I think that's kind of what she got slammed for was given me idea that it wasn't gonna be those things. But through it all I will say that my Ex-wife. And I really did a good job of doing this with Grace. With understanding, with forgiveness, with and openness and vulnerability and like so I, I think that we uncoupled quite well, but it certainly wasn't easy.
So, yeah. Thank you. Very long-winded answer to question one for you. That was a beautiful answer to question one. I do have a, a follow up question about, I'm intrigued by the friendship with your ex. Do you think there. I know we, I think we joke on the podcast a few times about how conscious uncoupling is so difficult and sometimes you're in the middle of it and you're like, that's ridiculous.
Why would I even wanna have a good conversation with them? Like, I shouldn't even want this. You know? It's wild. Yeah. How long do you think [00:06:00] that it took you from going to knowing you needed to get divorced to like feeling like you were good friends without the contention in the middle of it? Well, so I guess One of the things I can tell you is I'll take you back to a moment where I'm sitting on a king size bed with my ex-wife and our two kids who were, I think about 12 at the time.
And it was our time to announce that we were gonna get divorced. And the kids always knew when we were gonna have a serious talk and they were kind of like showing some apprehension about it. And I still remember this squealing sound out of my daughter when we kind of gave that news that we were going to divorce and it was a really hard moment.
But I remember grabbing a napkin and I was saying, this is the love between your mom and I right here, and then I'm gonna do this with it. And then just kind of [00:07:00] show you that. And I'm like, what do you notice about the napkin? And they're all, they're like, it's all crumpled. And you know, and I wrinkled and I'm like, I said, but I asked, is there any less napkin?
And they said, well, no, technically it's all the same amount of napkin. And I said, well, this is what's happening with your mom and I, that we still very much love each other and that it's gonna change shape. It's gonna change form, but it's, it's not gonna change your mouth. . We're still gonna love each other, and we're gonna love you guys, and we're gonna love the family as a whole.
So what a great analogy. The problem was it didn't really turn out that way. This is to your question, is that it did change about . That there's been an inconsistency with our connection and sometimes that's really hard and hurtful and we, we've had a few hard times, but overall we've kept it.
Very, very civil. I'm very thankful for it. I have [00:08:00] a new analogy. I'm throwing the napkin away now. It's saying that my, my love for my ex is kind of like one of those older radios, right? Where you gotta adjust the antenna and the dial and I feel like the metaphor here works because it's when the signal's strong, I.
Hear it and the connection is there and that, but sometimes it's kind of in and out. . It's kind of babes in and out and that, like, I'm trying to remember that the signal at the source is probably strong, but there's a disconnect and that, that that's okay. That sometimes it's just gonna, I had one of those times last week actually that's, that's a longer story.
But basically so I would say that we remained friends throughout. And that there was there were times when we would hurt each other with our words. There were times when we disagreed on things. But in some ways we get along better now than we ever did. We, we, we don't have to talk about money anymore, for instance.
Yeah.[00:09:00] . Right. I feel like money's always in that top three things that couples struggle with sometimes to talk about or to align themselves together on or have common ground on. But So, so we went to like two or three concerts at Meyer Gardens together this summer. I've been camping with my ex.
We have, we share a group of friends and we can all be together and not have it be awkward. So I think you know, our kids were a big factor in this, that you know, one of the things they'll see is they'll see your disconnect. They'll see your pain, your hurt. . They'll see your imperfections and brokenness, but they also see.
Your recovery, your resiliency, your ability to forgive and to move forward together. And so that's the kind of I guess vibe that we wanted to have come through to our kids. . It takes a lot of work and. It's awesome that you're able to get there and able to continue to do it. I love that radio analogy.
Oh yeah. Another one I've shared with a [00:10:00] couple clients of mine is that it's kind of like reconstructing an airplane while it's flying, you know, so everything's always in motion. We're always in transition and change and, and we're trying to do this really fundamental foundational work. While it's in the air.
Right. And so that, that is the work part for sure. Yeah. It is so hard to build a plane while you're flying it. I use that analogy a lot. I feel like that's my go-to mode. Yeah. Like live in the stress. Okay. Gotta be content. Gotta let the plane land every once in a while. I love the, it's like, well it's breezy up here or something.
Yeah.
I think I was, I had some hurt feelings over a lot of different things. I think she really wanted to explore. She, she's one who always had a boyfriend and had maybe six months where she was single in her entire life. And of course now we both crushed that record. But like she, [00:11:00] unlike me, who was single throughout most of my twenties She always had somebody, so she really wanted to define who she was independent of me.
. And I was still looking for the, the napkin thing, like Yeah. You know, where's the love? I thought we were supposed to like still hang. And, and so we had a little bit of disconnect on that. But, you know, it's like you say, it's a reinvention, it's a, it's a construction. . And today I'm, I'm happy to call her you know, one of my best friends.
In fact she owns a resort on a lake up north. And I, I stayed there last weekend with, with them as a family and had the sunrise suite it's called. And, and we went and we hot tub together and we just . Had, had a went out kayaking on a Sunday morning. And so yeah, I think it is possible, I think that the, the hurt and the pain kind of gets the way of a friendship forming after a divorce.
But You know, that's, that's, that's really challenging. One of the things I had to remind myself is that you know, hurtful remarks might be what [00:12:00] her step one looks like. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that that's where she's gonna remain. . Yeah. I think we all, were in, we're all in that moment too.
We don't know what the grief is gonna make us feel like, or what changes we're gonna want after we make the decisions. You know, it takes time. Absolutely. . It certainly does. Yeah. Yeah. So besides the divorce, you've gone through quite a few changes as you were just mentioning over the last few years.
So you made a transition. Are you living fully out now as a, as a woman? I. Oh, yes, yes. I've been living full-time as a woman for about three years. I would consider my gender transition to have started probably a few years prior to that, but yeah. When it comes to the subject of changes, I think of that David Bowie song, cha Cha Cha Changes time to Face the Strange.
And I faced a lot of strange, and just in two years, I changed my gender. Including hormone therapy and gender affirming surgery. Been living full-time as [00:13:00] a woman. I got divorced. I retired from a, a career in in high high school of 23 years. I sold my house of 20 years. I moved to like five times and Oh yeah.
There was a little global pandemic going on at the same time. Right, right. So those were all things that have happened over the last few years. And you know, I have some clients who I really feel such a big gap between where they are now with their gender transition and where they want to be.
And sometimes I'll whip out my old driver's license from just five years ago. But what, what you see in that picture is, is nothing like me outside. And I think inside too, I've, I've changed pretty dramatically. So yeah, it's been, it's been a time of change for me in the last five years.
Like tremendous, tremendous life altering stuff. . What do you think is the, the catalyst for you being able to say, like I know you talked about this a little bit, but I need it to live my [00:14:00] full, authentic self now. Like, now is the time again, you know, sounds like you worked through it with your wife and stuff, but what was that change in you?
What did that feel like?
It felt like I was sleepwalking, like a zombie for most of my adult life, and that I was, that the process of becoming a woman has been like, I've been awake and alive in a way I never was before. And, and present for the world, for others, for myself in my body, in ways that I never. Before you mentioned catalysts, so I kind of go with a, a collection of catalysts, if you will.
One definitely was sobriety. So as a lot of people with depression and anxiety can tell you one thing we tend to do sometimes is overuse substances. Mine was alcohol and Around 2016, I just decided to give it a break and I just quit drinking altogether cold [00:15:00] Turkey. Just one day I decided, and I went close to a year without a drop of alcohol.
And what happened was this sort of gauze lifted, I could see myself more clearly. And I finally you know, sort of got the courage to like really lean into transgender research and sources of. Help. And I remember having a book in Barnes and Noble's parking lot written by a transgender woman about her experience.
And I took a highlighter and I said, okay, I'm gonna highlight everything that reminds me of my life or my experience or something I thought or done before. And I sat there for two hours, read the entire book, and my fingers were sticky yellow with highlighter at the end of this experience. 'cause I had highlighted about half of the book.
And I closed that book that day and said, Moly. I actually didn't say that, but I don't wanna swear on this podcast. I am a transgender woman. . What next was really the thing. And so the next catalyst [00:16:00] for me was, was in, in, in, in, this is just being out as a woman. I went to the Electric Forest Festival was the first time I was ever in public as a woman.
With any other human being other than my ex-wife. And that was quite an accepting crowd, I guess you could say. I was cherry-picking a bit because it was like everybody was all glittered up. . And they were probably on some unknown substances and they were a very accepting group. Right. So like yep.
But it was really filled my bucket in a way that I had never experienced before. And I think that that was a moment in my marriage where my wife realized that this was more than just. You know maybe some gender fluidity or cross-dressing. I remember the look on her face seeing me sort of like at a concert and just, you know, dancing and, and those things.
And I think that that was, that's a thing. A catalyst also was therapy. Both group therapy and individual therapy. Group therapy was great because I could hear from [00:17:00] other transgender and non-binary genderqueer people to talk about their experiences, and I didn't feel alone. And individual therapy as, as well was, was really irreplaceable.
I've developed a phrase at that time, which was like, sometimes the fear won't go away, so you'll just have to do it scared. You know, I think for, for many decades I was waiting to like build up motivation or the fear or some kind to conquer fear, and then I realized, No, maybe the fear's just gonna be around here and so maybe what can I accomplish while I'm scared?
And and so I just did a lot of the scared and the final catalyst. Tera, I would have to say and is unfortunate, and I would wish away the pandemic in a second if I could, but the pandemic a as a lot of L G B T Q people would tell you is, was a, was a catalyst. . You know, and for me it was if the world might end, I'm going to be a woman as it happens.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. It was just kinda hustled me up and gave me sort of a [00:18:00] last little bit of push. And three years later here I am with a, you know, a wonderful new career and a, a reformed relationship with my ex. And so I'm just really thankful and have a lot of gratitude for the people around me and, and, and the Whatever internal capacity I had to be able to do things scared, I guess.
I'm thankful for that too. Yeah. I can relate so much to a lot of those catalysts. And the idea that, I mean, the pandemic for me too was like, I think I heard a research study about the pandemic afterwards and like how many people got divorced, how many people may life changes? And they're like, again, if the world's gonna end, I gotta be who I am going to be.
You know? Like that's what it felt it like kick started that in me. For me it was like I have to be a lesbian. If I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna make it anymore in this world, I can't die. Oh my gosh.
It's interesting that it takes something like that. And, and I, I noticed really your language there [00:19:00] was interesting. 'cause I have to be a lesbian. I love that line because really a lot of psychological distress, I think is when we, we don't align ourselves with who we are internally, right? . And that like, it's a, there's a disconnect that we're trying to live and that, that it's not something we choose.
It's something we discover about ourselves, and then our choice is about how are we gonna honor this discovery about my gender or sexuality or anything else that I've discovered? Am I going to repress it and suppress it? Am I going to interact with it a bit? Am I gonna display it in the world? And so like, I, I appreciate your sentiment there.
I appreciate also how you were talking about like doing things scared, but then my first thought was like, how do you do things? Scared. Yes. Things scared. Oh my gosh. You gotta be brave. How'd you, how'd you build up your bravery? Like what things around you helped you keep moving forward? Oh, that's a really good question.
So [00:20:00] when I think about that, I think Friends and family. You know, I think one of the things I had going for me that a lot of my clients don't necessarily haven't had the time, the life experience to build up this network. I have a pretty big social network of friends and family.
And after 40 years of, of having that, When I decided to come out, I think people were more willing to just say, oh, a girl, huh? Okay. I guess we'll go along with you. You know? And I think when you're in your teens or twenties, you just don't necessarily have your, your full tribe built up yet like that.
But definitely my friends and family I, I would say 99% of them. Accepting and supportive. And then in addition to that you know, I think, how do you do it? Scared? That's a really good question. 'cause I thought it was such a, a neat, like, little way to put it. And then in my experience, my clients are asking me the very same [00:21:00] thing.
Like, that's really cool, Jonelle. How, how did you do it and . How is a word I like a lot, Tera? And one of my discoveries was, is that for many years I was asking why. Why me? You know, why to God or why to, or why, you know, there's, there's a big why and a little why in life that we all confront.
And the little why is why, why me? Like why do I have this thing or that thing, or this family, or that family or this situation feeling like somehow the universe has treated us personally unjust. But then there's the big why question, which is why do we exist? Why are we here, you know? And I realized that I had been struggling with that for a long time with my gender, and then I realized I was asking the wrong damn question.
The question, a better question is how. You know, and so at that time of my life, I just transitioned to how, okay, so like, I don't [00:22:00] know why I'm a transgender woman, Tera, I couldn't tell you. Is it hormones? Is it like . Parental experiences? Is it, which I think bull crap, but it could, you know, it's probably a perfect storm of factors.
. But I do know this, and, and anybody on L G B T Q can tell you. You know, it is, it feels a lot less like a choice and a lot more about, like, this discovery. It's, I, I, I compare it to an archeologist sifting through the sand and like, and then they uncover this thing. Yep. And if any choice comes into it, it's what we do about it.
And so basically what I discovered though much, you know, like is that, oh, I'm gonna be so nervous to put on a sundress and go into Target. But wearing the sundress and feeling beautiful and feminine actually reduced my fear. And I, I would sit there in the parking lot, like, am I gonna be nervous to walk in here?
And I'm like, I don't really feel that nervous, so I just got to walk in. I guess you just got to walk in. I like that. And I think I, as you were [00:23:00] thinking about that, the idea of it being a discovery inside yourself, I think there's a lot of people who I know, a lot of people I've talked to too in L G B T Q community and even beyond that, like.
Even women as they're growing up, they're like realizing that their authentic self is a discovery or something inside of them. Not like this outwardly, you're right, like who I need to be in society and where I need to be. And you know, it's kind of painful though, that discovery, like I was just thinking about that, the pain between discovering and being able to live that space.
Yes. I think that Brene Brown talks about that as the. Like a midlife crisis. A lot of us go through that time where we just realize at some point that we can't live with the training that we've had in the past, or who we've been in the past, and then we have this huge unraveling of who we actually are.
I think that, yeah, I think. That is wild. I love Rene Brown. I've got Atlas of the Heart right behind me over here. . And I, I listened to some of her stuff on, [00:24:00] on podcasts and tapes and stuff too. And yeah, that, I think if we can look at that unraveling as. Unnecessary part of our evolution and growth.
. That, that helps. It's, it's the idea that through crisis comes growth and that if we can get just that one step of safe distance and removal from the intensity of it and, and see it that way. I love the quote that we you know, what we see in life is a result of what we're looking for. And and I can tell you I'm coming across as like, oh, I found my authenticity, but it's, it's not easy.
I'm not perfect. Last night I was really, really agonizing over what to where, to a YouTube podcast, you know? . And distrust was the winner. But like, this is like, you know, I know that my authenticity doesn't depend on a fabric hanging on my shoulders, but like I. Still have my moments. .
Probably like we all do on a [00:25:00] daily basis about asking, what is authentic for me? Not maybe that's with appearance, but it's also with our relationships and our careers and our families and everything else, you know? Yeah. I think, the part I've been stressing about for myself is like, I'm always gonna grow.
Always gonna be changing. And my new partner and I will always be changing and we're gonna meet, the kids will always be changing, and we have all of these things ahead of us. At the same time, I wanna find who I am authentically within that. And I'm like, what is that? This dynamic does not always make sense.
We're changing and moving and whatever, and then all of a sudden we're like, shoot, who am I in the inside? But I feel like there has to be this feeling, there has to be this, I don't know, it's contentment. Maybe it's like that. Finding of contentment in each of the spaces of growth, but it's never having to find that contentment never ends.
I feel like, yeah, at least that's the experience I'm having right now. Maybe that's a good way to finish that off. I'm, I'm the [00:26:00] same way. I think that I, I have this phrase living the question. This is what we do. And, and every day when we open up our eyes in the morning, this thing happens where our reality collapses into our own lives and our own little stories.
And then we go about like being the author of those stories and, and asking that question every day. I'm with you on the contentment piece. I think maybe I'm most authentic when I go past the notion of self in the first place, right? . And, and it's like this almost a spiritual orientation to just be here now.
Yeah. I really like this Leonardo da Vinci quote that I've run across, which is something like this that he says, when I place my hand in the river, I simultaneously say goodbye to what has come before. Hello to what comes next. Mm. And I feel like our human existence is like that, that hand in the river where we live, sort of in an endless now.
And anxiety is a [00:27:00] lot about upriver or downriver. Yeah. The past or the future. . But right now, unless a semi is veering over into my lane. I don't necessarily need anxiety. And then now a whole lot it's there for those emergency situations. So to be authentic for me is to be present, you know, in, in your body.
I think, one of the most funny ways that I do that now is I dance a lot and as a man, I just never, I was always so self-conscious about dancing, but it's like my hips have been set free here, you know, and so now I just love to move my body and I . I do yoga and like, I just, I really like to be present in my body and present with others.
The, the counterintuitive thing, I thought I was gonna lose all my friends and family. And basically every relationship in my life with a couple exceptions, is better, is richer, is fuller, deeper now. And and so yeah, like I said, awake and alive [00:28:00] is, is what's my transition. I've tried to embrace that part of it.
I remember being on hormones for just like, A couple months and then grabbing fists of grass and going, was it always this green? Like everything just, it was like the world opened up. . So I think authenticity is a, is a daily adventure for us to, to like tap into. And it's always an open question.
I think as we move through time. I think you did a real good job at describing that. And I love that river idea. I was thinking, thinking about my anxiety too, like what's down the river? What did I leave down the river? What is it? Oh, ahead of me. What is it? Yeah, yeah. Thinking of that moment is, whew. That's mind-boggling.
I need to work on that. My mom is this old, like wise soul. She was a social worker, PhD, taught college for years and but she has this phrase like, it's not happening today. And this is her way. 'cause she would see me stew and get anxious about things that were future oriented or that happened in the [00:29:00] past.
But she had to remind me, just, you know, I'll say to clients sometimes, let's just do Tuesday, right? Like, today is Tuesday. . And you and I'll apart here in a bit. And then we'll, we'll go about just doing Tuesday. You know, stay here. I like that. I love that. Also, you must have got the quotes from your mom.
She was in pretty quota. She passed those down. I like it. Oh yeah. She's definitely a word nerd for sure. . You've talked a little bit about the supports that you had through your transition. So you had you therapy group therapy, individual therapy. Going to I like the idea that you went to electric Forest, and I understand I haven't been to Electric Forest, but I've been to other places where I can feel that intense belonging and how healing intense belonging like that.
Can feel. It's kind of amazing. We need to have both. I wish that could happen every day. Right? I kind of get a high of going to a festival and being like, I'm in this really space of belonging and I love it. And then next week I'm like, oh, why can't the [00:30:00] world be like this all the time? Oh, I, oh my gosh, Tera, you are speaking my language.
I I would live at music festivals if I could. Even before I transitioned, I was a big enthusiast of live music and I followed the Grateful Dead around when they had Jerry Garcia and I saw them like 30 some times or something. And I was always into that sense of community and like love and belonging that you would get in those settings.
And So the forest was you know, I, I never really imagined that I could live as a woman. I never really started to believe it. Until right before the pandemic, it really was. And I remember walking into the forest and this really busy bartender was again we ordered a drink and she stopped what she was doing and looked at me in my purple sparkly prom dress I was wearing.
And she was, she was like, oh my gosh, you look fantastic. Those three words, you look [00:31:00] fantastic. Just like exploded in my heart like a diamond. Like I just, . I couldn't believe that, that I could be accepted out there in public and that, that I actually looked okay and that I was, that I could do this.
It was a moment where I realized I, I could kind of, I could do. I really do wish it didn't. I know this is the Queer Divorce Club podcast, so to get, to get marriage back into it you know, I think I would've hung in there a bit. But I, I wanted to honor my wife's own authenticity 'cause she had helped me so much in my gender transition.
And she just came to me the Christmas before the pandemic, it was like two months before, and said that I, she wasn't sure that this was gonna be authentic to be married to a transgender woman. And I said okay, I understand that. So it's it's one of those love each other enough to let each other go kind of thing.
It's so difficult to do that. It's kind of, yeah, get so much of that when you're raising kids, but you don't think about that in [00:32:00] your adult relationships and the connection you can make and how really living in our truth sets us all free. It's an amazing, it's amazing to be in that space.
On the other end of it. Yeah. And my kids have been tremendous throughout this process too. I think that they they missed the foursome that we were once, you know? Yeah. And I think the moments that we get that, which are about, about at least once a month, we'll have a, a meal or something, or we'll do a pontoon ride or something, and you can see it on their faces that they sort of value that, that experience.
But with my gender transition, they were wonderful too. I think. Almost anybody under the age of 20 kind of looks at gender a whole different way. Yeah. That there's, there's a lot more open-mindedness and acceptance there. That's awesome. To have your kids alongside you. They go through this, they go through divorce too, and there's a lot of grief there, but it doesn't have to mean that their life is ending.
There's this other space of being able to rebuild in a positive way for them, [00:33:00] expand their experience, even though it's hard to lose, like you said, you know, the foursome used to be, or the family used to be. Of course. It's difficult. I grew up witnessing a failing marriage. Both my parents are good big hearted people.
But together they wouldn't, if you met 'em within five minutes, you'd be like, those two really, like, like what, what happened? And but you know, I was, I came along in 1968, you know, and that was an era that you, if. If a woman got pregnant, you know, you got married and you snuck it out and not a lot of people got divorced back in those days.
They did, but not at the rate they do today. There's more of a autonomy attached to it. And so I say this to some of my clients too, is that. When they are thinking of splitting off, they are, the, the kids are one of the primary concerns of course. It's like, how's this gonna impact them? Like divorce is really gonna negatively [00:34:00] impact them.
And of course it is a hard, hurtful time for them. But it's also hard and hurtful to watch a non-functional marriage. Yeah. For years. And so like I graduated three years before my sister. Then she graduated and my parents had divorced within three weeks of my sister graduating high school. It was like once we turned 18 and got that diploma, like then they could finally be free to live their own individual lives.
And I was like, Maybe, maybe that should have happened in like 1975 when we were like in grade school, you know? . And just like, and so I think that there isn't an easy answer. I think that, you know, you go through a lot of things to try to make a marriage work. And when that, that doesn't work, you know, I think Loving each other enough to let each other go becomes a viable thing.
. And again, the kids see the hurt and experience it, but they also see the resiliency and, and they are seeing your intentional efforts at trying to make it work with this person. Yeah. As you [00:35:00] untangle and build a new normal. . Yeah, and I think there's a lot for a lot of people, right? It's wrapped up in the guilt of the fact that you're choosing this for them.
I mean, you're making the choice that to stay in the marriage or, but there's a lot of other things that could happen to kiddos that you don't have. They don't have a choice, right? Somebody gets sick, somebody dies, you know, like all of these things that can happen in kids' life and we know that there's these supports for them that we're gonna help them through it.
Divorce is, you know, just because you chose to do it doesn't mean that it's not something you can help them through in the same way the grief. Kids can still get through the grief and, you know, build off of that and grow. Yeah. I really like you've mentioned grief a couple times and I, I think that's a really wise way to view it too, that there is grief here and that there's no right or wrong way to grieve other than to grieve.
. You know, to find ways of expressing. I talk a lot about putting the motion in emotion, right, because. The root of emotion is it's movement, right? . It's emotion. It's [00:36:00] being able in this way. I think like a three-year-old toddler might be the most emotionally brilliant person we meet, because when they're bad, you're.
Roll on the floor, belly lap and they . Feel an emotion and express it almost immediately. . And then move on to something else. And that we, adults, we get stuck in these things. Yeah. Stuck and sad is called depression. Stuck in worry is called anxiety. And so I think it's really important that I think that if kids are involved in a divorce, that they, they see these intentional movements and efforts to make, make things work. To move through and beyond. Yeah. For sure. What would you say that you're most proud of during this last five years of six years of transition and getting to where you're at today? Wow. What am I proud of? I think I'm proud of just how we did it. That, that we, that we tried the napkin thing, right?
That [00:37:00] we tried to keep a very palpable, very observable. I think probably another way to answer this, Tera, would be that you know, a marriage I think is a closeness and a vulnerability. That is quite uncommon. I think it's closer and more vulnerable and more intimate than what we have with our parents, with exception of maybe when we were babies.
And it's closer and more intimate and more vulnerable than we are with our best friends. It's, it's a relationship like no other. And because of that, I think is that we let. We let this other person in, we've let them all the way in. Our doors and windows open for them, and this is how they can hurt us so much.
This is how the damage is done, is that I've let you in so closely that you know all of my weaknesses, [00:38:00] you know, my flaws, you know, my beauty and my brokenness. So you can hurt, hurt me like no other. . And so knowing that, I think my ex-wife and I did this thing we called freedom and forgiveness which is things that we would grant each other and they, we, we grouped them into those two categories, freedom and forgiveness.
Freedom was for both ourselves and the other person. Freedom to explore what feels genuine, authentic to, to be who you are. . And freedom for the other person to exhibit vulnerability, to be hurt, to give us pain, to, to, to dish it out a little bit, to show some anger, like . It was, it was freedom.
To, to be here wherever you are right now. . And so, you know and then following that was forgiveness. Forgiveness for yourself for, for being imperfect, but growing and, and becoming who you are. And, [00:39:00] and forgiveness for the other person, for saying something hurtful to me, to being angry with me to.
Really like saying things that we wanna say are true . But like, maybe have a seed in truth because we let them in, they know what our vulnerabilities are, they know what our weaknesses are. And and, and having that, so we went back to that a lot, that freedom and forgiveness thing because one of us would react negatively to something that somebody was saying that was challenging.
And then we went back and said, yes, but I, I felt free to say that to you. And then, The other person hopefully would say, I forgive you, but sometimes that would take, it would take a few days, right? . Take a few days. My last one took three days, and the radio analogy really helps me because I realized, oh, this is one of those times where it's staticky and not coming in clear.
Yeah. And, and that's okay. And so I just chose to love her anyways. She had asked me to go to Florida. I was like, well, no, I can't even use a bathroom down there [00:40:00] right now legally. And then following that, she was like, oh. Do you do you wanna watch our pets? So, no. I, I live an hour away, you know, and yeah, I was, I had to work through some funky feelings .
Because I felt like, oh, you know, she's not considering me or whatever. But but, you know, I, I probably follow anti-trans legislation more than the average bear, so like that's . You know, and, and I just forgave her for that and just like, and then we had a wonderful weekend just a few days later, so So, yeah, I guess My pride would be that invention of the freedom and forgiveness thing.
. And having it be a system that we could kind of return to like a home base. That, that got us through. And now I think we're out the other side and that we're just, we're gonna be good friends, but sometimes we might see and, and talk a lot and sometimes it's gonna kind of fade out, but, Yeah, I think that's really profound to be able to say to the space, like, you're free to feel whatever you need to feel in this moment.
Be who you need to be. And I forgive you because I understand it's hard. I [00:41:00] understand it's hard for you and it's hard for me, and we're both going through lots of big changes. That is really profound. I love that. I. Yeah. Thank you. . Yeah, it's, it is, it might be profound. It's also quite tricky. Yeah.
Yeah. But but I think if you, if you could agree to, to keep returning to that. . Such a, a really magical thing that happens is that when you're through the pain of divorce and the splitting up and the money and the kids and the custody and all that stuff, You could still have a wonderful, wonderful friend out of this thing.
Yeah. And and I, I really want that for, for people. My mom and dad, you know, like I said, they got divorced in, in 89 and but they're still able to inhabit a space with, with grace and humor and, and things. And I just, I want this for people because it you know, it seems, I'll tell you, you said grief.
Here's one. Grieving is a lot harder when the person's still here. Yeah. You know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And it's super hard for you know, I went to three funerals, six months shy of high school graduation because of things. So it is really hard when young people die and things, and I get it, but like there's a finality to that.
Like it's, it's hard to close a wound that is constantly open, you know? . And open to open by the presence of this other person. And so I think that that's when forgiveness really comes to play a key role. . I was just thinking about that, that how sometimes it just takes a moment to try and then.
Try again and repair if it didn't work, and then try again. And then eventually over time, if, you know, you can work yourself into being friends, you know, if only one person's working on it or the other, you know, there's some cases where the other person is not going to work on it. And that's unfortunate.
And you have to find acceptance in that as the person who may be willing to forgive or want to have a better relationship if the other side does not want to you. [00:43:00] You know, you have no choice in that, but there's this other space of like, we have no idea how to do this, and we think we wanna be kind to one another eventually.
So let's Yes. Try to one step at a time. Yeah. I think if you could find that essential kindness there, I think that's, that's good. And yeah, I, I always say too that we want growth to be such a linear process, but it's anything but . And so it, it is gonna be I'm, it is gonna be like a rollercoaster, but I, I try to make it more like a, a roller coaster for age eight and under, where the highs aren't too high and the lows are low.
Kind of one of those, it's not like the even drop where you're like, just like going off the deep end there, both literally and, and metaphorically I suppose. But but yeah, I think that that, that, that's the thing. I think that. We got married in the first place. 'cause we sensed that there was some core common values .
And common world views and hopefully kindness and the desire to to, to connect [00:44:00] and to have compassion for one another is, is, is one of those, those values and, and you can get back there. But like it, it takes a lot of this. Just hurt and pain, so have it be vulnerable. That's one of Brene's big things, right?
We've been sold such a false bill of goods with the idea that vulnerability is a weakness or something to hide and keep private. And, and so I think that that's probably something that we, we, we did and continue to do. My ex-wife and I decently. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds wonderful. Oh, I'm just thinking of come down to the, the, the last question here and you've already given, given so much with your story and so many great quotes and advice and I love it.
I'm wondering though, do you think you could leave the listeners with something that you feel like is the most important to think about as they're going through divorce or if they're in the rebuilding stage?
Well, a [00:45:00] lot of it is, is in that, that freedom and forgiveness thing I mentioned. And I think also just saying that, you know, transition. And so obviously in my life that's played out in a gender way, but I, I think all humans are eternally in a state of transition. And that what it looks like today is that what it maybe will look like tomorrow.
And, and to, to keep that in mind that it's an unfolding process. It's like this journey in what looks like maybe hate or anger, discuss those really powerful things that this is just, this is what. Step one looks like. . You know, for, for, for your partner, for maybe yourself. Right. And to have that just be okay in the moment, but then know that it's, it's going somewhere else, that ultimately the [00:46:00] intensity of that pain will decrease.
. And the the duration of it and, and, and that nobody wants to be in a state of resentment, right? . But the other person can't really release you from that. Only you can. Yeah. You know, and, and once you do, then you look at it a whole different way, you know? And so I think that we are worthy of the greatest love.
And love is always at risk, but it's always worth it. . And in the end, love wins. And so whether it's breadcrumbs or a clear blazing path, find your way back to love, find your way back to, because it's not always lost whatever you fell in love and had back 10, 20 years ago. There's seeds of that there.
Yeah. It's just, it's changed form, changed amount. But it, it doesn't need to be lost forever. . I, I don't think [00:47:00] even if love is a Christmas card in the mail once a year and not disparaging you in front of my kids. Okay. Check. And that's, that's, that's, that's generous love. That's what you have to give at that point.
. And that's, that's okay. But I think the toxicity and we, which wanna get, is out of the loop of toxicity and, and, and like attacking and, and things like that. You're already vulnerable, you've already let them in. . Yes. They can say and do hurtful things and, and you probably can too. But I'm really stubborn, Tera, and the, my worst fear is probably being stuck, right?
Like so so like find ways to become unstuck would be the best thing I could say in that situation. . Find ways to become unstuck. I love it. You've given us so many gems. So good. I'm looking at all my notes. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so. Well, I, I, you gave me a couple days to think about it, so I jotted a few things down, but like, probably if my clients listen to this, they'll be [00:48:00] like, oh, I've heard that one before.
We know that one. Right. But and, and a lot of this, to be honest with you, is me telling myself this stuff. Really? . You know, I. One of the great philosophers said physician healed thyself. And so that's kind of a constant process for Jonelle here too. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you have lot of practice stickies on your mirror?
That's my go-to. I love sticky notes. I love sticky notes. I have 'em all over. . All colors, stickies. Yeah, bright. Bright as can be. Okay. The sticky notes are important. Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for having me and giving me this opportunity and you're doing really good work here, Tera, so keep it going.
And I'm gonna start to tune in as a listener as well, so, Thank you so much and thank you for giving us your time and for sharing your story. And listeners, if you're looking for, Jonelle can find her at rivercitypsychological.com. [00:49:00] I'll put that in the show notes, but thank you so much. Thank you and have a great rest of your week.