Episode 14: Nina Raff, LCSW, Co-Parenting
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, we deep dive into the world of co-parenting. Tera is joined for a second episode with Nina Raff, a therapist who specializes in divorce and co-parenting. Nina offers invaluable guidance on navigating post-divorce parenting. Learn how to maintain a healthy co-parenting relationship with your ex, support your children through the challenges of divorce, and manage your own feelings of guilt. Nina's insights provide a wealth of support and information for parents on their divorce journey.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Nina Raff
No one gets married thinking they will divorce. Marriage has been such a hard won fight for LGBTQI+ couples. We enter into love relationships with high hopes and plans. It can be devastating when it goes south. Nina Raff, LCSW has been a psychotherapist for over 30 years helping people with transitions and change.
Nina is an individual and couple therapist as well as a mediator, collaborative coach, and a discernment counselor for couples who are not completely sure about divorcing. She has studied and consulted and trained continually since she received her MSW from Cal Berkeley in 1988. Nina has extensive interest and experience working with LGBTQI+ families and individuals. In addition, she has many years of experience treating addictions including both the individual with addiction and family members affected.
Nina belongs to Collaborative Practice Golden Gate, Collaborative Practice California and the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals. She has been a volunteer with Peninsula Conflict Resolution Center and has in the past worked for Kids’ Turn. She is a certified co-parenting specialist. Nina is retired from Kaiser Permanente and is working only remotely.
You can find Nina online at collaborativedivorcegoldengate.org.
Show Transcript
Welcome back. It's been a few weeks since I've put out a new episode, and I've been working through some of my own parenting lessons, building co parenting relationships, and working on healing with my partner, and Working on my own healing and oh my goodness, I've been doing everything the past few weeks, for real. It's non stop But the truth that I'm really feeling lately is that through all of that divorce seems like so much work but I think it's because I'm choosing my own healing and being more intentional with my kids and For real, it feels like I was an autopilot in my survival of my life before and now everything has been broken open I'm feeling everything and working on myself and supporting my kids in new ways and building an amazing new partnership and None of that could have happened if I didn't Make the first choice for myself to get divorced.
I wanted to share that with you all because this season of my life is feeling more growth than it ever has. And despite how hard that work can be, the work feels like it's fruitful. I'm building more trust in myself and my kiddos are getting stronger and my relationships are getting stronger. [00:01:00] And despite having more work to do.
I feel like I'm solidly on the right path and I'm thankful for that today. And I'm so happy I get to share that with all of you. Thank you for being back here with me and please give yourself some compassion today for doing your best because you really deserve it. Before we hop into today's episode, I also want to say, if you're looking for additional support for your divorce or rebuilding journey, please consider joining us for our first virtual gathering on November 16th.
The Queer Divorce Club is coming together on zoom to support each other through our journeys. It's a virtual support group gathering. And I'm so excited for it and you can find out more at QueerDivorceClub. com. Okay. Now on to our guest. We have back with us today in the, on the podcast, Nina Raff, and I can't wait for you to hear her take on co parenting after divorce.
If you haven't listened to our first episode, episode 12. I highly recommend going back and listening to that episode before jumping into this episode with Nina. In this episode, she walks us through all things parenting post [00:02:00] divorce. How to co parent with your ex through good times and through the hard times, how to talk with your kids about divorce and support them through their own grief, and how to manage your own guilt post divorce so that doesn't affect your kids negatively.
Nina is a wealth of support and information for parents, and I hope you enjoy our conversation just as much as I did.
Hi, Nina, welcome back to the... Queer Divorce Club. Thanks so much, . I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you today about co parenting. We had such a great conversation about collaborative divorce and, you know, how to get through a divorce, you know, as parents or not in our last episode.
And I really thought it would be awesome to talk to you today just about co parenting and see what we can see, where we can go with that conversation. Absolutely. Co parenting is so important. Before and after divorce, right? Yeah, right. That's one of the tough things, right? Is if you're getting divorced because you have [00:03:00] trouble communicating or, you know, whatever.
And you maybe aren't parenting great together while married. It's sometimes being divorced can help you parent together better, but also then it adds these other obstacles for communication. So there's a, yeah, let's add a layer. Yeah. I mean, my top thing that I do want to say about it is put your children first.
Yeah, you know, put them above any conflicts that you're having put them 1st the way you did when they were born if you had them when they were born, but even if you didn't, yeah, put your children 1st. Okay. We'll keep that as an overriding theme throughout. And I think you're right. It is so important.
And when you think about what your children's needs are over time, and those can evolve, you know, putting them 1st really helped me. Yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, they didn't have a say in this. Yeah. Right. Right. There's that. They don't have a say in much. No. And they probably and they feel so out of control when you go through divorce.
They feel like you're right. They have no choice. Their life's being [00:04:00] upended. And so their grief is just a lot different. And it's just hard. It's hard for kiddos. And On that basic level two of, you know, putting your kids first, what would you say, you know, start us off by giving a little bit of information on what are the benefits of developing a strong co parenting relationship with your ex?
So everything. So many benefits. It's not easy for many people. For some people it's easier than others, but you know, like you said, when you're having conflict with your ex it's hard to talk about anything, but putting the children first. Really creating with them a strong coparenting relationship, if you possibly can really just protects the children and, you know, helps them accept the divorce, helps them move forward.
It helps them with their feelings. It helps them with their lives. I mean, you're making so many decisions that affect their lives [00:05:00] and they can get through this, but the better that you can coparent and the less that you can expose them to conflict. The better they do. Yeah, the kids need to see their parents be a team through this.
And that can look in many different ways. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. But yeah, kids need to know they have a secure, supportive grounding, you know, at least at one of their houses. Right? Right. And, you know, and that's actually something that I want to kind of lean on also about this is that you don't have control over the other house.
So just make it your house, make your house really great for your kids and by great, I don't mean give them everything they want. I mean, healthy and nurturing and with, with appropriate discipline and appropriate boundaries and structure and all the things that you think that the other person should be doing, just do it yourself, even if they're not doing it.
How do [00:06:00] you are? That's great. How do you stop yourself from not wanting to control the other house? That's that's where I'm there. Yeah, this is where the whole like, take care of yourself is so important you know, get support from friends from therapists from family, whoever you can get support from and just focus on you focus on you and your child because, you know, you can, you can make decisions about how to communicate.
With your child's other parent or parents and those decisions are really important as well and can have a big impact. But what you do is the main thing that you have control over. Yeah. So if in those situations where maybe the other house or your ex is not. You're not able to communicate at all, either.
Maybe it was abusive relationship or you really have toxic communication. Co parenting looks a little bit different, right? So [00:07:00] what would you say to somebody who isn't able, you know, like you're just saying you have your house to maintain, but what about the communication with the other parent? So there's a, there's something called BIF brief, informative, firm, and.
I forget what the last step is, but basically, like, keep your communications brief and informative. Be for be firm and direct and clear and don't expect anything from the other person. You, you do your part and that's all you can do and create the best environment that you can for your child. And even if you aren't hearing good things from the other person or anything, or they're angry or whatever it is that you're getting back from the other parents, you continue to do your brief and informative and firm.
Like, you just keep it there and don't get hooked [00:08:00] into that. That's why you're not together, so You don't have to get hooked into the conflict, into the toxic space anymore. Exactly. That's the benefit of it. You don't have to explain yourself a lot. That's where the brief thing comes in that I think a lot of times people think that they're going to convince the other parent to be different.
Yeah. Mm hmm. That's really unlikely. So, you know, I would just let go of all the convincing stuff and just say your piece very briefly. Yeah. Would you say it's probably, I know you're not a divorce researcher, but would you say it's more common than that, that parents co parent like in their communication and logistics and make big decisions for their kids together, but often run separate households after getting divorced.
Like it's more common than not that you are going to parent way less together after you're divorced. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I think that one thing [00:09:00] is that the, that usually the people that we're attracted to are very different from us. Yeah, that's opposites attracting is really true. So when you met this person and you decide to have Children with them, or however that went, usually there's somebody that that's quite different from you.
So, maybe you're very structured and they're very loose. Maybe you're very more disciplined and they're more give in. Maybe they. It's just see things different. There's not a right and wrong to those things. So moving yourself off the right and wrong and just saying, okay, this is the way I am. This is what I think it works best.
That's fine. Then you just do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think we I run across that in my day to day where both of my partners and I as kiddos have a lot more screen time at their dad's house and they have a lot more Kind of structure their home a lot more at their dad's house. And at our house, they are, you know, we go outside more and we have less screen time.
And often we have push and [00:10:00] pull from them. Like dad lets us watch TV. Dad lets us stay up late. You know, that's a common, a common thing. And I just keep saying to them, like your whole life is the whole month, you know, your time at your dad's, your time here, you know, sometimes experiences can be different at each house and you get some outdoor time here and you get indoor time there.
You know, yeah, I think they have to find that balance. You get both. Yeah, I wish they saw it that way. Yeah, they probably don't, but they, they might, you know, they might think, Oh, you know, good. I'm going to dad's. I get to play the video game, whatever. I mean, they also might say, I'm going to mom's and I'm gonna, you know, get to go for hike or, you know, or whatever.
So, you know, and also kids are different. You know, some kids want to be outside and some kids are more indoor kids and you provide what you provide. There's not a right and wrong about that.
It's a good way to think about it, because I think often, you know, [00:11:00] because kids in the push and pull are talking about my kids in the space, they'll sometimes use that against me, like, they're frustrated with me, like, well, dad lets me watch TV and you don't, you know, let me do that, and so then I take on that guilt as a mom and be like, well, Am I doing the wrong thing?
Should I let them be doing video games? And I'm like, no, I have to think about what I want for them as values, you know, for their kid, you know, as a, and as an adult, what I want them to have in their lives, what I want them to build and still focus on them. It's really not always rewarding day to day. With or without divorce.
Yeah. It's rewarding day to day. But one thing that I would say that it sounds like you're doing right. Which is really great. It's just being a very matter of fact about it, you know, where they're like, yeah, dad, let's meet at a, like, yeah, he does. And here it's like this, you know, and you just, it's just what it is.
You don't have to defend it. There's, you know, kids are gonna play you [00:12:00] against each other, even when you're together. Yeah, that's true. They play, especially as they get older. Yeah, that's true. They play us against, like, my partner and I against each other in the same house, and, you know, once they started settling into her as a bonus mom, they were like, okay, Carly, can I have this?
Tara, can I have this? And then, yeah, Carly, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I was just hearing a story about you know, this probably happens all the time, the kid that goes to, you know, one parent's house and says, The other parent said I could blah, blah, blah, and then goes to the other parent and says, the other parent said I could, so then they get both parents to think that the other parent agreed with it, and I don't think that's uncommon.
Yeah, you know, kids are smart. It's actually a sign of intelligence, in my opinion. Right. They know how to use their resources. Yeah. Manipulative. We use manipulative as a pejorative, but it's not right. It's like, you're trying to get what you want and you think you need or [00:13:00] whatever that may be. Right. It's just that kids don't really know as much as adults do.
Right. It's a natural survival technique, right? They're making it through the world. Exactly. Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with it. You just want to try to catch them if you can. And so the better communication that you have with the other parents. The easier it is to say, well, you know, well, you know, dad said I could go on this trip with my friend and, and no parents and you say, well, let me talk to your dad about that.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have a little conversation with him and then I'll get back to you. Yeah. And that's also one of the things that I really think is hard for all parents, but really helpful is don't answer right away. It's okay when a kid says, can I blah, blah, blah for you to say, yeah, get back to you on that.
Okay. And then you can think about it, get your support, you know, figure out what you want to say about it. Possibly talk to the other parent if that's a possibility. [00:14:00] Yeah, sometimes it's just a quick text saying, did you say blah, blah, blah, you know, the parent can be like. Yes, I did or no, I didn't. I'm right.
Easy, easy enough. What do you think are the basics? Like, as we're talking about this scenario I could see how that comes up a lot. It comes up for him for us. And I frequently am texting back and forth with my ex day to day about drop offs and pickups and stuff. So our, our kiddos know that we are in communication.
So even trying to pull that we're talking. So it's like, yeah. Okay. But what do you think are the basic? So if our relationship is, is strained what are the basic things that we should be talking about, about our kids on a regular basis outside of the schedule? Oh so many things that could come up and, and I think that would be.
The biggest thing is like, I noticed this, or the teacher told me that, or a friend's parent mentioned this, or, [00:15:00] you know, just different, anything about your child, you do want to communicate to the other parent. Yeah. So confirming it. And you want to do it without blaming them, without saying, you know, really.
Like this, this isn't on you. I just wanted you to know. Yeah. Even if you think it is on them. Right. Take that out of it. Yeah. Okay. Keep it brief. There are a lot of parents, just to say nuts and bolts, a lot of parents use Google Docs where they have a shared doc where they can write stuff and Google Calendar where they can put the calendar, especially if you have more than one child.
Mm hmm. It can get complicated. The pickups and drop offs and, oh, this one has soccer and that one has guitar lessons and, you know, whatever this homework or whatever that may be. And so having a shared calendar there's some, there's some apps for that too. There's my family wizard is an app that you can get that you just helps you [00:16:00] also helps you take out anything that's pejorative or.
Blaming or. You know, anything like that and keep it just really super factual which is usually, you know, a good key is like, you have a tendency to want to explain or to blame or to say, did you blah, blah, blah, because that wasn't really that terrible or and those things are just not going to help your.
Parenting your co parenting. So, yeah 1 way to do that also is especially if you are going to write a text or an email or something is to write it 1st. And then look at it, don't write it on your. On your phone, where you could accidentally accidentally send it before you review it and, you know, write it on a piece of paper and you write it with all the blame in it.
And then take it out. My therapist actually just told me about this website that helps you take the blame [00:17:00] out of your text. I need to put that up and put it in the show notes. So write all the nasty thing in this website and then it'll pop out more kindly. That's great. Perfect. Yeah. And that's a good way to, to move through it and not put the blame out there and cause more emotion.
That's going to get in the way of actually getting what you need for your kiddos. Right. Just remember also how you feel when you get blamed. Like, yeah, no, it doesn't feel good. So day to day when you're communicating to you mentioned that it's good to get updates about what's happening with your kids.
Right. So, like, I recently had one of our kiddos was. having some really high emotion times. And he, you know, he's having trouble in school. And so for him, he was so exhausted. He was working really hard to get through this, you know, his reading and working through it. And so at the end of the day, he was just be exhausted and like throw these big fits.
So I texted my ex and said, you know, have you noticed this from him too? And he actually, he confirmed that yes, he [00:18:00] was. And so it was able to give us, you know, give me some information on what I could do to help him. And so that was good to even just check on that very basic. Thing that's actually really hard.
It is hard. It is hard. It's really hard. Yeah, and you know that and that's another thing that I was thinking about when I think about like, how do you co parent is how different your children can be? And that you might have one child that's very emotional and expressive, and you might have another child that keeps it all to themselves.
Yep. And they're quiet about it, but that doesn't mean that they're not having feelings. Right. And maybe they don't know how to talk about their feelings and they need more space for that. Mm hmm. You know, just kind of like the indoor outdoor kid, you know, I would just work with a couple not too long ago, and one of their children was very athletic and out on the soccer field and, you know, With friends and very social and the other child like to be alone and draw and do, you know, stuff in a [00:19:00] room.
And so, you know, it's accepting them the way they are, but also giving them the space to say, yeah, this is hard, especially early on in the divorce and and for a while. Where you can go to them and say, you know, Hey, honey, I know this is hard. Yeah. And you might have to check in with each kid differently, right?
Like show up for them as they need it. Right. What if I might be yelling at you and being all like hard and, you know, acting, acting angry and the other one may be more sad. I'm keeping an eye on them also, so that if you know, that sadness gets too extreme or you hear them say that they're going to hurt themselves or they say, you know, little things like, you know, it'd be better if I wasn't even here or that you really pick up on that stuff and get them help.
Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things that's helped us considering [00:20:00] this, we have three very different kiddos is that we have a therapist for each of our kids and actually our two youngest has the, have the same therapist, but she sees them at different times. And then that's helped us a ton being able to talk through their relationship, being able to, for her to see the dynamics of our family as a whole and support the kids through it.
And that's been a very healthy. Yeah, that's really great. And yes, some parents, some kids, some siblings have you know, the close relationship and they talk about it and some don't because they're just kind of different. They don't really support it. They don't know how maybe or they don't, whatever the reason is.
They don't support each other as much. And parenting is hard. Yes, it's hard. And then I'm just thinking of the age ranges, too, and how different it is if you have a baby. Right. And you're trying to co parent, you know, a one year old or a six month old versus a teenager. I mean, it's just a completely different story.
Yeah. Seriously. I have, you know, we have [00:21:00] a seven year old and a 12 year old, and even that age difference is a huge difference. Yeah. Pre teens are so different. Then young kids. So, I mean, I feel like what we've saying so far is that you communicate about each kid. Look at each kiddo as an individual, you know, see where they're at and then be brave with your ex to ask about what's happening day to day with kiddos.
Be okay with it. Be emotionless and don't blame. I think I'm, I think I'm following. I got it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Emotionless is the right word. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Like just try to Keep it matter of fact. Yeah, I would think of it and you can say things to your the other parent. Like is there anything that you've noticed lately that I should know you know, give them the credit also of being an observant, like amazing parent, like just act as if they are, even if you don't think they are and, and [00:22:00] be able to say, like, Yeah.
I know you're close to, you know, our daughter or son and, or where, and do you, have you been noticing anything that might be a way of saying, yeah, give them credit and expect that everybody's doing their best or at least trying to do their best through it. That's true. Yeah. So when couples are starting the divorce process how do you help them through the initial steps of, like, figuring out how to co parent in the best way?
Like, what things should we be thinking about at the beginning of the process? A lot of times at the beginning of the process, there is a lot of nuts and bolts about scheduling. And also people are confused about how much to tell the other parent. Yeah. Which is not always the same for every couple. So some parents want my, may want more information and some parents, you know, let's streamline this.
Just not wanting so much, [00:23:00] I don't know, interaction, I guess. So sort of figuring that out about each other. And being able to try to make it work for the other parent in some ways as well. Again, putting your child first. So, you making it work for the other parent is not giving yourself up or hurting you.
It's just trying to make it work for the child. Yeah. Or children. So I think that's, that's a big part of the beginning stuff and just also at the beginning, the children are probably struggling more. So really keeping an eye on that and being able to say something about that, if it needs to be said to the other parent.
One thing so I'm working with a couple right now. One thing that's been really hard is that one of the parents. Was much more emotional about the divorce and was crying all the time. And so the children have a reaction to that, [00:24:00] you know, they want to protect that parent. They want to take care of that parent.
And so they do so by rejecting the other parent a lot of times, or at least some way in some ways rejecting the other parent. So being able to accept that that's happening. Without somehow blaming that other parent who's also doing the best they can. Yeah. They're not trying to cry in front of the kids.
They're trying not to, but you know, the kids are smart and they pick up on it. So, being able to, you know, let the children say what they need to say, listening to them, continuing to be there for them, even if you're getting rejecting messages and they don't want to see you saying, well, I'm going to be here and you're going to, you know, working to get both parents to support the other parent.
Yeah. I think that can just be really hard at the beginning. People are so angry and upset and[00:25:00] and they are, a lot of times they are blaming in their own mind, in their own heart, and they may or may not say that to the kids, but. The kids feel it. Yeah, kids know. They always know. They do. I'm always like, how do they know?
Well, they were in the house with you when it happened. Isn't that right? Yeah. They see it all. That's true. And they know you so well. Yeah. You know, they know what all your facial expressions mean. They know, you know, they've been watching you since they were born. Mm hmm. You're the main people in their lives for so very long.
You know, if you think about it, till they're, you know, going to maybe kindergarten, even if they go to preschool, they're... They're with you so much, and they watch you, and their survival depends on you. Yeah. Okay. So one of the things we experienced pretty consistently with our kiddos is that they had gone through COVID and during COVID times, we spent a lot of family time together.
And so their consistent norm was their, their nuclear family, their being [00:26:00] together. And so the transition was, again, very, you know, even more difficult. Like I've not seen that parent or this parent, you know, they understood. You know, that people could get sick and people could die. And so there was all these other emotions that were in there.
And that was very difficult to transition through that. And kids at this point have all gone through that. I mean, unless they're babies. Right. They pretty much have all gone through that. And, you know, it's something we don't have a lot of experience with. It's. We've never had a pandemic like that in our lives, and, you know, there's just so many external things like that, and we just have to do our best.
Yeah, you were just talking a bit ago, too, about, like, staying and listening to your kids and showing that you're showing up. I think that, I think for most parents, there's going to be some need to heal the relationship with your kid through this process, right? So they trusted you in this space that you were their family, it was always going to be that way.
And so no matter how well you [00:27:00] go through the process with them, you break down their relationship a bit, right? They trust you in different ways, or they see things differently, or, you know, there might be some stress, or like you were saying, they might be blaming. One of the parents over the other how do you work with, you know, as a parent, do your best to continue to heal that space with your kiddos?
There's hope on the other end, right? Like, if you're working on it, maybe I just need you to tell me there's hope. There's totally hope. Yeah, there's totally hope. There's a lot of things that. Are kind of age related in that arena like for instance, kids, once they're five, even maybe from five to 15, I would say something like that.
I don't know. It depends on the kid. They blame themselves. Yeah. And that's a really hard piece and you have to keep you have to tell them like a lot of times, even though that doesn't really change it for them. Like it's words. [00:28:00] But you can, you know, keep letting them know that it's not about them. And, you know, one thing that I hadn't thought about so much that someone had brought to my attention is that a lot of times they might have heard you fighting about them.
Right. Because we do fight about our kids. You know, we do argue, like, Oh, you let them have all that screen time? Like, Oh my God, you let them have that candy? Oh, you know, you didn't let them, or whatever it may be. And So that just adds more, you know, that's something that's already happened that when you were fighting about them, you didn't even know you were going to get divorced.
At least you may not have known, or you may not have known from the beginning. And so they you know, they, they take that on as a responsibility. That it's about them and they try to sometimes they try to act out so that you'll come together and help them if they're in trouble. Yeah, and sometimes they they just can handle it different ways.
Sometimes they just get [00:29:00] really sad and hold themselves back from achieving. Sometimes they're the perfect child so that you'll come together, you know, they won't be causing you problems anymore. So, so that's 1 piece, you know, that's for a pretty long time of their childhood in the middle of their childhood and especially.
Everything's about them. Yeah, that's just a normal developmental stage is that it's all about them. So this is too. And, you know, I just think that hearing them spending time with them, reminding them that it's not their fault, that you don't blame them. You don't think it's their fault that it was a grownup decision and it was about grownup relationship.
And that this happens sometimes and maybe they know other people. That where their parents have gotten divorced and, you know, you're just keep reminding them. You're both going to love them. You're both going to be their parents forever. And in a way, [00:30:00] you're still going to be family, you know, in a different configuration.
That's how I like to think of it that the family is changing its configuration. It's changing its shape and what it looks like, but you're all still going to be family. Yeah, and that family can look like just being able to go to a parent teacher conference together or even just checking in over text.
Family can be connected in that way. It doesn't have to be, it can be, you know, spending holidays and birthdays and stuff together. It could be also just texting and your family can look like, you know, whatever it's supposed to. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing, this is something that I also think.
Think about a lot is that for queer families, I think that it's easier that there is a tradition. I don't know if tradition is the right word, but there's a history of of queer families staying close and stay and being best friends with their exes and having you know, it's a family of choice, families of choice that include.
All kinds of [00:31:00] different relationships. Mm hmm. So a lot of times I think for queer families getting divorced, that transition, although like you said at first, can be really rough because everybody's upset and mad and, you know, hurt and all that's happening. It's all churned up. Mm hmm. But that after a little while, a lot of times the family does come back together again in a new configuration.
There's, there's love there. Would you say that time period at the beginning, I think I have I've got a few friends and people in the group that are going through that first part and we talk a lot about the messy middle. I feel like that's the, this time later in the healing for yourself, but there's also this time right at the beginning where it just feels like more of a crisis and it's really hard to come back together.
It's hard to, you know, set your future co parenting goals through that. It's hard to like be friends through that part. Right. Yeah. Would you say that can, you know, I feel like for us, maybe it was [00:32:00] two years, sort of, of not full crisis, but being able to settle into our new spaces, and then we could talk to each other more about, you know, we talk about the kids and put them first, you know, very minimum, but it seems like that took us that amount of time to even get to the next step, right, to get to the next step of.
Being able to think more about, you know, what else we need to, you know, talk about what else is really variable. Yeah, you know, and for some people that comes quicker for some people, it's longer. And, you know, I don't exactly know what that depends on, probably everything. But to envision that that's going to be a possibility in the future is helpful.
Yeah. If that's possible to envision. And for some people at the beginning, it's not even possible to envision. So then, you know, then I would say if the next choice would be. Can you envision a civil relationship with that person and [00:33:00] that you could somehow honor them as a parent? Yeah. And and even if, you know so there's, there's a program here called kids turn.
I don't know if they have that everywhere, but it's a program where the kids come and meet with the group of their. Peers, their same age group, basically a little age range and talk about divorce and have a chance to talk about it with other kids who are getting divorced or are, you know, whose families have either gotten divorced or somewhere in that process.
And then the parents also come and they each go to a different group. So there's two parent groups for one parents and then for the other parent and talk about how to. Manage all of this stuff and and reduce the conflict and stuff. And we had a long, long time ago. I worked for them and it was a parent group where 1 of [00:34:00] the parents was in prison and the other parent was here.
And how do you, and was working on how to let the child know that even though that parent is in jail or is in prison they still love you and they're still your parent and they still really, you're important to them. Like no matter what the situation is, my point that we can talk about that they have a sickness.
Yes. If they have addiction, maybe, or if they have a mental illness, we can talk about that they have a sickness, but that they still love you and that they always will. So, you know, so no matter how terrible that other parent is, or maybe, or may have been, or whatever may have happened, we still build them up to the child in terms of.
That they, the child still means a lot to them. Yeah. Do you think that that's developmentally for the [00:35:00] kiddo? The important part is knowing that they're loved and, you know, yeah. Yeah. At every age, at every age. I still feel like that's for me now. Yeah, right? I mean, for adult children, it's true too. And there is like this whole there's a book called Gray Divorce and the person, You know, writes about adult children, and it can be hard for adult children because now you have, you know, grandparents that don't get along and, you know, or just, or maybe you're a young adult and you want them at your graduation or your marriage or your children's birth or whatever it may be.
And they may or may not be able to manage that together. And I guess, you know, that my hope is that you can find a way to manage it together. Yeah. I think it's important. Yeah. To be able to, I feel like my parents got divorced when I was eight or nine. So it was in the [00:36:00] early nineties. It was, you know, divorce wasn't as prevalent as it is now, or at least the cult, the supportive culture around divorce.
So, and I feel like I remember my parents were not in the same room again after that, until I graduated from high school. And then when I got married, essentially. So there's like this, you know, when I graduated from college, I think they were there together too. But I even had two graduation parties for high school.
Like we didn't barely anything together. They couldn't do it even then. They couldn't even do it then. 10 years later, eight years later. Yeah. Yeah. That's terrible. But it's also just the way it is sometimes. Yeah. And so to be able to say, okay, let's just have two separate parties. Yeah. Let's just have two separate parties and we'll just honor each other having that.
Yeah. That's okay. You know, like people have two separate birthdays, they have two separate holidays sometimes and it's, it's okay if you can do it with respect for the other [00:37:00] person. I mean, it might still be sad for the child, but they still have both. You still have both your parents love you. Right.
Right. They just didn't want to be together. Right. Yeah. The hard parts are when the parents are fighting, when they're disrespecting each other in front of the kids, when they're using the kids against, you know, using to go through the kids against each other. Yeah. So 100 percent don't do that. So that's like also really basic.
Do not use the kids as messengers. Don't say to the child, especially, well, especially till they're older teenagers. I think if they're to older teenagers, they have more say. About their scheduling and, and what's happening with that, and they may speak to each parent on their own about that. But until that, until that point make those arrangements out of earshot if they're really like, civil and comfortable, then fine, you know, then fine.
The kids can hear it, whatever. But if there's any kind of tension, any type of [00:38:00] disagreement. Any type of arguing. No, don't do that in front of the Children. It's bad for them. It hurts them. Yeah. Don't talk about money. Do not talk about money in front of your Children. And. That's like your child support, any type of spousal support even any worries that just worries about money or you're not great for kids to hear because they don't feel safe.
They don't feel protected. Yeah, you would let you, you really want them to feel if possible that they're going to just be okay and they're going to be taken care of. And that's the main thing that you want to. Be able to convey to them. Now, if you are listening to this and you are going to be homeless and living in your car with your child, they're going to know that.
Yeah, they don't need to hear you say, oh, my God, I'm so worried. This is going to be terrible or whatever. Like, they're already going to know. So just, you know, be be hopeful and optimistic with them. So, you know, we're [00:39:00] going to get together. It's going to be okay and I'm never going to let anything happen to you and I'm going to take care of you.
So, even in the worst circumstances. You want to give them the impression, hopefully a truthful impression, that you're going to take care of them no matter what. Right. Like you're trying, you're moving forward, you, you know, you're keeping their security as much as you can. Right. And if they need to live with their aunt for a while or something like that because you're in your car and just, or whatever, you're, In a tent or whatever your situation may be then you still give them that positive.
Say, you know what, your aunt Sally is going to be taking care of you for a while until I get on my feet. And as soon as I do you're going to be living with me again. And meanwhile, I'm going to see you as much as I can. And now we're going to make this work. So you just want to be as positive as you can with them.
It's not that they won't know the reality. Right. Right, but you're there to offer security. Yes. That's your job. Mm-hmm. and if your support checks are [00:40:00] late or whatever, don't talk about that in front of them. They don't need to hear that they want you. Your job is also to convey that the other parent is doing the best they can and is also committed to protecting them and taking care of them.
Yeah. What about moments when you're feeling really emotional? I know I've had so many, and there's been a couple of times where I've slipped up and yelled at the kids or had these moments. We talk about repair a lot, right? Repair is the important part. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you can, depending again on your children's age, you can say to them, you come back to them later and just say, look, I'm having a hard time.
That doesn't mean you need to have a hard time. I don't want you to have a hard time and I'm getting support. I'm getting what I need to get it together. It's not your job to fix it for me. No, it's not your job to make me feel better, but just knowing that you're alive [00:41:00] makes me feel better. You know, like just letting them know that you're getting what you need and you're taking care of yourself, which is also super important, especially at the beginning that very beginning part, getting as much support as you can, because that's the time when it's most likely that your emotions are going to be out of control.
Yeah. That you're going to be sadder and angrier and you know, just flaring up inside in different ways. And you, you can't always keep that from them, you know, you do your best, but you can't always. But it'd be better if you could share it with a therapist or a family member or a friend or someone who's a support to you outside of earshot of the children.
Right. Yeah, and that's important for them to not think that they have to take care of you through any of that. Which they will. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a, that's a go to. I, I've seen it in my kids, friends, [00:42:00] kids, you know, any moment where you, you see it when you like are just crying about, you know, maybe somebody passed in your family and the kiddo will come up and try to comfort you.
And I think it's natural to comfort, but then it's also say thank you for supporting me. Yeah. I'm glad that you're being empathetic and we can get through this together. I want you to know though, that I'm, you know, getting the help I need and I'm going to get through this. We'll get through it together.
Yeah, you know, sadness is usually about loss and they're going through loss and you're going through loss. So, you know, it's fair. Yeah. And you can say, yeah, I'm really sad and. I know you are too, and we're gonna be okay. Yeah, we can, I think I know one of the things that I often do as I go through just thinking about this is I always thought maybe if I just say the right thing, it's gonna fix it for 'em or they won't be sad anymore.
Yeah. Like I just, you know, feeling so guilty about them feeling bad or having to go through this and just wanting to fix it for 'em, and then if I try to fix [00:43:00] it, it actually makes it worse. It doesn't work, but also if you could become appreciative of their sadness instead to where you're like, yeah, I want them to be able to feel sad.
That's such an important thing. And if they didn't feel sad, wouldn't that be weird? Yeah, like we don't want that. We don't want them to be automatons. We don't want them to not have feelings. We want them to be human and to experience their grief, their sadness, their anger. We want them to experience all of the human emotions.
Yeah, and be able to express them that that's amazing if they can right and not everyone can yeah, that's the goal We want I always think about my kids like if 20 years from now They're sitting and you know at work in a meeting Do I want them to be able to say what they're feeling or do you know? We want them any relationships later to be able to say what they're feeling on the D You know just thinking about that who is setting it up from the beginning and [00:44:00] that's the problem with fixing it And I'm drawn to fixing it too.
I mean, we are, that's, it's a normal pull to want to, you want your kids to not have any problems and never have any trouble. But what we really want is we want them to feel. Accepted in their grief. Like we want them to know they we want them to know that we think they can handle it. Yeah. And that it's we have faith in them that their sadness isn't going to break them.
Right. It's like giving them the gift that they can trust themselves. Yeah. Yeah. It's a gift we've, I always wanted, right. Working on now as an adult, like, can I trust myself? Can I trust myself through this? And that's where a lot of guilt comes from and yeah, teacher gets to trust it. Let's talk about guilt just for a minute because I think guilt does impact us.
Whether we're the person that, you know, called it and said, I want the divorce or [00:45:00] whether there were, maybe we cheated, or maybe we did something, whatever it may be to to mess things up in our relationship, or we, or maybe we didn't, but we just feel guilty anyway. We really want to try to get the support that we need to get through that guilt so that it's not.
It doesn't impact the children where we're like, oh, they can have anything they want and do anything they want because I feel guilty. Yeah. So, you know, I don't really want them to have no structure and no boundaries and no discipline because I feel so guilty. Yeah. And, and that happens. You know, sadly that happens that sometimes we feel so guilty that we can't set limits.
Yeah, what happens, what happens to a kiddo if they don't have limits, if they're getting whatever they want, if they don't feel like they have safe boundaries? So, then they don't feel safe, actually. [00:46:00] The boundaries and limits help kids feel safe. Okay. Sometimes they can start to feel very entitled, and they think they can do anything they want, anywhere.
Yeah. But really, kids on purpose, Without knowing it or I shouldn't say on purpose, but developmentally, let's say they do push the boundaries from the minute there to when they start saying no. Right? So there, as soon as they get language, or even before that, they, they say no. And they push the boundaries because they need to know where they are.
They need to feel the boundaries. So if you don't have any limits and boundaries for them, they feel out of control and scared. And they may not show that to you, especially if they're older children, it may seem like they want nothing but freedom. But as we know about our, you know, one thing that we know, like, for instance, about adolescence is You know, that there's a famous book.
It says something. It's something like get out of my life. But first, can you take me to the [00:47:00] mall? There's a push pull. There's that push pull of like, they need you, but they don't want to need you. They wish they didn't need you, but they do still really need you. And and that goes on into young adulthood.
Where they're starting to need you less and less and in different ways. Yeah. They don't need you to take them to the mall anymore, but they still need to call you and say, you know, what do I do about my insurance? Or, I've never done my taxes. What do, how do I, what do I do? Or, you know, just many different things.
Right. So they call you about those things. Hopefully. And the way that I learned is to try to transition, especially an older as you, as adolescence goes on from manager to a consultant. Okay. So you're starting out in the early days and you're managing their lives. But as they get [00:48:00] older, hopefully they're coming to you and say, Hey, what do I do about this?
Yeah. You know, someone said this to me now, I don't, I felt really terrible. Like it could be emotional things could be social things that could be you know, how do I vote? You know, I don't know, like you could be a million different. Things, but you want them to be able to, and if you can just, if you can help them make that transition and you can make that transition, then hopefully they will come to you.
Yeah. Yeah. And you think, I think thinking about the age of my kiddos, it seems like you could be a consultant relatively early, like even the seven year olds feel like. They do need some management of their lives. You know, where should they go? What should they play basketball in three sports at a time, you know, like that sort of stuff, but they do come to you like so and so hit me or having this conflict with my brother, or I'm having the struggle with my dad.
Then your job is to listen, right. To sit and listen and offer. It's so hard. I know. I, my, my son was I don't know, in elementary school. I don't know what age, [00:49:00] maybe. Eight or something, and he just he was having a problem with this kid in school. And every day he would tell me about it. Like, it'd be like, every day I'd pick him up and I'd be like.
You know, Julian, Julian, Julian, and I'd be like, giving him ideas and being like, fix it, trying to fix it. Right. And one day he just turned to me and he was like, can you just listen? That's my job.
Like, yeah. That's, you know, out of the mouths of babes, right? They tell you what they need. And, you know, even as a therapist that I spend my whole day listening, my kid, I pick up my kid and I want to fix it. Yeah. So I just, you know, want to normalize that, like, that is what happens. And we have to catch ourselves and pull back.
Mm hmm. And especially if it's a problem with the other parent. I'd be amazing if they could come to you and say, I'm having a problem with my other parent, and this is what it is. And you [00:50:00] could listen and not try to fix it and not take a stand and not get involved in it. Yeah, so as we're talking, I'm thinking, you know, through what all we've talked about, so there's definitely the importance of co parenting is thinking about communication, how you're communicating, how often you're communicating, making sure that, you know, if it is tense to use the BIF analogy, you know.
Oh yeah, I remembered what the other F was. Oh, you remembered, great. Friendly. Friendly. Friendly. Yeah. So brief, informative, formative. Firm and friendly. Firm and friendly. Okay. Informative and formative are the same thing. Okay. So brief, informative, firm, and friendly. I like that. Make sure that you are sitting with your kids, listening to your kids, treating them each as individuals helping them, support them through the process.
And. Watch out for your guilt, right? That's one of the other ones. Make sure you're, you know, not letting your [00:51:00] guilt, give them whatever they want and avoiding boundaries and, you know, keeping that safe, great security for them and be brave. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do as a parent to get through all of this?
Being a parent so hard, isn't it? Yeah, you know, divorced or not. It is hard and. You know, what I would just say is like, get support for yourself and just keep taking good care of yourself so that you have something to give. Yeah, because if we get depleted, we, you know, that's when we snap and do things that we regret.
Yeah, it's really true to put your oxygen mask on first on planes. Like, yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And take time. Like, I, you know, again, try not to you know, when you can try not to respond. Impulsively to be able to take something in and sit with it for a minute and make a decision on how you want to respond.
Yeah. [00:52:00] Easier said than done. I know, you know, we're not always going to do it. And then we just forgive ourselves. Yeah. Sometimes we apologize to the child. Sometimes we don't, depending on what it is, but we forgive ourselves because we have, we have to be human. Yeah. And it's hard. Another thing I did want to say that actually relates to you and your, because you have three children is it's really great if you can find some time to spend.
With each of them individually. Yeah. Finding a way, you know, that a lot of times you're together as a family, you're together, you're together, you're together, but it's also really nice if, you know, once a month or once every couple of months, you just have to have a date with one of your children by themselves.
Yeah, and then you get to hear maybe different things or get a different take on them, or it's just special. Just makes each of them feel special. Yeah. And do you think that the frequency of that is, you know, the kiddos don't necessarily need that every single time you see them or every week that you can do that [00:53:00] every few months or once a month?
Yeah, whenever you can arrange, you know, that'd be great. I mean, it's like mostly you're going to be together, I would assume. Sometimes if they're really different ages, it's kind of not together as much. But but yeah, I would say it would be best to be together mostly. But then. Know either every month or every couple months or how, however often you can swing it.
Mm-hmm. to try to see them a little bit by themselves. Sometimes those times ac occur naturally also because you're shuttling people around and you know, you pick up one child and you have a long drive or something before you take 'em to their next thing, and that counts too. Yeah, it's time alone with them.
Yeah, I know. I've been thinking about that again. It's it does feel like you're adding intentionality to your day all the time as a parent, but recently we had a kiddo where I was picking up two of them. I would pick up from [00:54:00] school and have these like 15 to 30 minute time periods where I was only with that kiddo.
And then there was one that was never getting that. And I could tell that for him, it felt right. Much more stressed over time, like I'm not getting seen, I'm not getting my time, you know? And it was just basically because I was getting the pickup time from, for one, you know, both of the other kiddos at different times.
Yeah. Although I have to say like putting yourself in their shoes. Like, if I got to spend special time with one of my parents, just me, that was kind of amazing and different than the pickup, like, yeah, right. Like, if we went ice skating or we went, you know, to do something, right. Or, you know, bicycle ride or just, I don't, those are things we did.
But, whatever that may be. Yeah. And it could also be a fun and intentional time for you to play with your kids and see them as individual humans and forget about the stress of divorce and talking through things and like, yeah, yeah, that's really good. You know, it's whatever kid light, like put yourself in your kid's shoes.
Like, what did [00:55:00] they like? Maybe they want to just draw or play a game or, you know, whatever. Their personality is. Yeah. Get in their shoes. Go play some Minecraft if you need to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I told my son not too long ago, actually, and he's 26. I'm like, can you teach me how to play your game?
Because I don't even know how to play video games. Yeah, he probably loved that. He probably didn't do it though. He did show me the game though. Like he did. He did show me the game. Like he was playing whatever some game, but yeah. But yeah, he did show it to me. Maybe he loved it. I don't know, but it felt good.
Yeah, I think I, yeah, I think that's important. I think I was listening to the podcast. We can do hard things and Kerry Washington was on there and she's talking about her parents and she kept saying, I want them to be a supporting player in my life. And that's been ringing true in my head, you know, I think as we end the [00:56:00] podcast and then I think that's, you know, what you're saying is kiddos, get into their lives, see what they need.
It's hard when you have multiple of them because you have to do it for each kid, but that's what they need. To get through this. Right. And that's what they need to be amazing humans, whether you're getting divorced or not. Yeah. And you're being a role model for them. Yeah. You can get through a hard thing too.
It's true. Believe in yourself too. That's the bottom line. Yeah. Really? Because if you don't, you're going to, it's going to be ugly. Yeah. All right. Believe in yourself. Be intentional with your kids. Easy peasy. We can do this. Sure. Yeah. You can do it. And we're not going to be perfect. And that's okay. Mm hmm.
You don't have to be perfect. Yeah. And talk up your other parent, the other parent. You know, instead of put downs, we say put up, put ups. Put ups. Put ups. Mm hmm. Make it, make your kids think that [00:57:00] you're happy that they spend time with their other parent and their that you want them to have that good relationship because you do because it's good for them.
Yeah. Even though you don't want it. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your your perspective on co parenting and how we can gently go through this with our kids and be gentle on ourselves and support each other and show up for them. And I really feel like I was just going to say it feels like you make it sound easy, but all of this is difficult.
But the basic things are that. If you do these basic things, communicate, you know, put up your other partner, support yourself, believe in yourself, you know, get there, get the support you need to get to those spots, but, you know, things are fall in line and divorce does not have to be tragic for your kids.
They can get through it and be whole and be amazing humans on the other side of it. A hundred percent. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for having me, Tara.
Thank you for [00:58:00] joining us for the Queer Divorce Club podcast. We hope that our discussions have provided you with valuable insights and support throughout your journey. If you're a member of the LGBTQIA plus community and find yourself contemplating divorce, currently going through the process or in the process of rebuilding your life after divorce, we invite you to join the Queer Divorce Club, connect with others who have similar experiences and find a sense of community.
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