Episode 17: Dr. Joe Kort; Gay in a Straight Marriage
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, join us in a candid conversation with Dr. Joe Kort, a distinguished psychotherapist and the founder of The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health in Southeast Michigan. Dr. Kort specializes in working with individuals, particularly men, who grapple with the realization of their gay identity while navigating straight marriages. We delve into the challenges of coming out within a marriage, the complexities of remaining in a marriage as a queer individual, and the arduous journey of making it through divorce. Dr. Kort aptly describes the process as brutal, and together, we explore strategies to navigate some of the toughest moments during this transformative period. Join us for insights, resilience, and a discussion about the positive destination that can be reached through the challenges of divorce and coming out.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Dr. Joe Kort
Psychotherapist Joe Kort, PhD, LMSW, is the clinical director and founder of The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health in Royal Oak, Michigan. He is a board-certified clinical sexologist, author of four books, lecturer and facilitator of therapeutic workshops. Throughout his 36 years of private practice, he successfully has utilized varying therapy modalities to help hundreds of individuals and couples improve their lives and strengthen their relationships.
Dr. Kort specializes in marital problems and conflicts; mixed orientation marriages; male sexuality and sexual health concerns; “sex addiction,” out-of-control sexual behaviors; sexual identity issues; childhood sexual abuse; LGBTQIA Affirmative Therapy; and Imago Relationship Therapy.
He is trained in EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing), a safe and effective treatment that can help patients who have suffered for years from anxiety, distressing memories, nightmares, insomnia, abuse or other traumatic events.
Dr. Kort obtained his undergraduate degree from Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan, with a dual major in psychology and social work. He earned master’s degrees in social work and psychology from Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, and a doctorate (PhD) in Clinical Sexology from the American Academy of Clinical Sexologists.
Dr. Kort is the author of three books covering topics such as male sexual identity, relationships, and sexual fluidity. He also is the author of a book for clinicians working with the LGBTQIA population. He has written numerous published journal and magazine articles and is a regular contributor to the online blog for Psychology Today. Dr. Kort is in his third season of Smart Sex, Smart Love, a podcast series featuring a variety of topics – from sexual health issues to parenting conflicts, men’s health, sexuality as you grow old, marital problems, dating today, transgender concerns, kink, and much more (www.smartsexsmartlove.com).
Dr. Kort also conducts workshops and intensives for singles and couples.
His career focuses on advancing the social acceptance and professional treatment of issues surrounding sexual health as well as the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender communities.
You can find Dr. Kort online at joekort.com on TikTok @drjoekort on Instagram @drjoekort and on Facebook.
Show Transcript
Hi, Joe, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Hey, thanks for having me. We, I'm excited to talk with you today about relationships and why we sometimes choose to get divorced and, you know fill it, finding out that we're queer while we're married and, you know, what that means and what that can mean for our future.
So thank you for being with us today. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I love talking about this. It's actually my specialty where I usually see the primary focus is gay men married to straight women, but I've seen different configurations, but that's mostly what I see. Fabulous. Can you give us a little bit of a glimpse of, you know your practice and how you work with people who are going through divorce?
Yeah, sure. So I've been a therapist 38 years and I went into private practice 30 years ago, almost 31 years ago, and I don't know why or how or if it's just because of Detroit, but I just started to see a lot of mixed orientation couples where one, the guy was gay and she was straight and I just [00:01:00] had a lot of compassion for them and a lot of empathy.
It's almost like I was, I mean, I was never heterosexually married, but I wonder if in another lifetime, which I don't even believe in, maybe I was, but yeah. I just felt like I, I didn't have an agenda for them. Like unfortunately a lot of therapists have an agenda for these couples. And that is that straight spouse, get on with your straight life, get out, divorce.
Gay spouse, get on with your gay life, get out, divorce. I don't feel that way. If you feel that way as a couple, I will assist you. But I feel like I hold the space of where you are in every stage until you figure it out. And if you decide to stay together, I'm in. So I'm a different kind of therapist than a lot of other therapists.
Fabulous. Cause I'd like to talk through all of how we make those decisions, how we decide to stay together or not together, what that could all look like, you know, what are all the possibilities for a couple when a couple first comes to you, you know, what are you seeing are the reasons that they might realize that they're queer or, you know, what are the signs that they're seeing when they're coming, you know, when they're first [00:02:00] realizing that they are.
Well, the thing is, people think, well, you know, why did you marry her? I'm going to stay with the gay man, straight woman scenario, just so I don't go back and forth. But they would say, well, why did you marry her? If you knew your day, he often didn't know he was gay. He knew he had. Interested in male sex male on male sex, he knew that he had attractions to men, and you would think, well that means you're gay, why wouldn't you know?
It doesn't mean you're gay. Some guys think this is a fetish, it's a kink, it'll go away, it was because I was sexually abused as a child, they make up all kinds of stories, because when you're in early stages of coming out, you don't know what you are, you don't, it's not your identity, it's just a behavior or a fantasy.
But by the time life goes on, you know, and now, unfortunately, you're married and now you have children or whatever, and your defenses start to crumble, and your identity starts to push forward, and it starts to, you start to recognize, oh, this isn't just kinky or fetish, I'm gay, or I'm bi, or whatever, I'm queer.
So then [00:03:00] that's a whole, then that, then that begins a whole different pathway for them. Yeah. And you're seeing, I'm sure a lots of different choices are made. Like how long should I stay in the marriage? You know, can I be queer in a straight marriage? You know, what are some of the things that you see men are grappling with once they realize that they are gay?
Well, they still want to stay married. They love their wives. See, that's the thing people don't really understand. The wives understand it is that they still love them and they want, they don't want to break up the family. Everything's great, including the sex, by the way what you'd be surprised to know is very pleasurable, very satisfying sex with their wives.
And it's not about that. It's about this interest now in actuating and integrating a gay, a queer identity. And so that's their first thought is I don't want to tell her because I don't want to lose her. And if I tell her, will she leave me? And her, of course, response always is, I always thought women would be mostly worried at first about you know, are you bringing me STIs, STDs, [00:04:00] or HIV?
Their first concern when they hear this is, are you going to leave me? Yeah, um, in the I'm trying to think about when you're in that scenario and you're trying to decide, you know, are you going to leave me and they decide maybe to stay together. You know, what are some of the agreements or different things you can do in a relationship where one person is gay and one person is straight?
Well, let me tell you, that whole process is brutal. And I use that word and I say that to the clients that as you go through this, because here's what, how it starts. He says I'm gay and she's like, well, you better stay monogamous with me. That's what I signed up for. That's what you committed to. He's like, okay, I'll try.
And then he can't. And then he says to her, I need to go. And she's like, then I'm going to, there's a line in the sand. I'm leaving. Then he's, you know, this is all like happens over time. And then he's like, well, okay, then you're going to have to leave me. I don't want you to, but I get it. And then she, she changes the line in the sand and she's like, well, wait a minute.
And then they, they go through this back and forth of how are they going to do it? How do they commit to each other and allow for an open kind of marriage? [00:05:00] And it's very, very, very Scary and sad and angering. And I think I got away from your question. What was your question? Your question is great. I think we should stick on what you were just saying.
What do you think? In those instances where you've opened up the marriage, you know, how do you How does that work? Did you see that working well for couples? I mean, I've been, I've seen many different types of polyamorous and open relationships. Had one myself where we tried to utilize that to support, you know, my other desires.
You know, it can be structured in very many ways, but how do you see that working for couples that you see? So I always can never make a generalization because it works differently for every single couple only because of the person that you are in that relationship. Right? So some people are, you know, monogamy is the only way.
And if you're not going to stay monogamous, I'm out. And then others are well, then let's work this through. Like you're saying an open relationships. Maybe they'll develop into a polyamorous where there's a boy. He gets a boyfriend. She gets a boyfriend. He gets a boyfriend and she [00:06:00] doesn't. And somehow they're They call it, I saw a website, it's called Gay Plus One, and I love that.
It's like, he's gay, his only outlet and interest in women is his wife, and they do make it work, but sometimes it doesn't stay working, right? So it sounds great, okay, let's try this. But then he goes off, and he's being sexual with other men, maybe he gets a boyfriend. It's almost like this. It is like this.
He still gets to have what he wants, and he gets more, and he gets something else that he also wants. He gets to keep what she wants. But she gets less of what she wants and that's the dance they have. It's terrible. Yeah, it's brutal. It is brutal. Do you think that there's couples that have stayed long term in that really type of relationship?
100 percent for all kinds of reasons because they still love each other because they're good partners, good parents, good business partners in the marriage. They handle the money right and well and there's a, but it takes a lot of work, a lot of maturity and a lot of willingness. And it's okay if [00:07:00] some women say, you know, I want my life too.
And I didn't sign up for an open marriage. I'm going to, I'm going to leave. And there's no hard feelings, but there are really unfortunate situations where there are really crazy queer men who are, who act out crazily and gaslight their wives and, you know, don't have a lot of sensitivity or empathy for her.
And there's a lot of straight cisgender women who decide that this is their moment to identify as a victim for the rest of their lives. And it's that part is ugly to me. Yeah. Why do you think that happens in some relationships? wEll, as I think about the woman, I think what happens is she does feel victimized and is victimized when you think about it, right?
She didn't sign up for this, but a lot of the women, I will tell you, they always said, tell me often tell me they knew. They found his porn, he told them, she could tell, but she, she decided that maybe she could change him, maybe she'd be enough, or [00:08:00] maybe it just, it wouldn't turn into anything. And no shade to her at all, these are just what I see in my office.
But then when she realizes it and she goes through this. victimization of betrayal. There are just some women and I think it's related to their personality who decide that I'm going to be a martyr to this for my whole life. And she'll turn to him and say, I'm going to make your life miserable for the rest of your life because you ruined mine.
It's really, it's, and I think that's really a personality trait of the woman. It's not a dynamic of a mixed orientation, marriage ending. Interesting. Do you think that I mean, I think that it probably makes sense psychologically that she might feel like victimized based on, you know, the fact that it's not supposed to be natural to be gay or that we're, you know, it feels like a betrayal of your commitment to each other and your marriage and, you know, all of those things that, you know, could be, you know, any different than cheating or these other reasons that people get divorced.
But What do you think, what are ways that couples can if they find out that one person is gay, one [00:09:00] person is straight in a mixed orientation marriage what questions should they be asking themselves so that they can make healthy decisions through that process to stay together or get divorced?
Yeah. Well, I think that they're the same questions that any couple would make to open up the relationship, right? Is, can I handle jealousy? What are my attachment issues? You know, will I be able to tolerate how much detail do I need to know or not know? about what you're doing or not doing. A lot of the couples will say keep intercourse for me and go play with other men but don't have intercourse.
They'll have all kinds of different arrangements and which isn't any different really as any open relationship negotiating. Yeah thinking through this too as a person that came out while I was married, I often felt the responsibility of maybe like holding the other person through the process. And I know now over time that that's not necessarily what I should be doing.
They're also an adult and it's okay to be me. What advice would you have for a person that [00:10:00] feels guilty about this? You know what? So, yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. Number one thing I see is that they feel so guilty. The queer person feels so guilty that they they don't even want to get an attorney.
They'll say, I'm not even, I'm just going to share their attorney. And I'm like, this big mistake. You're going to regret it on the other side. They always do because they feel like, Hey, I. Gave her a lie. I you know I'm the one who did this and I, and I say to them, you can take more accountability, most accountability, but they still have their lives to live and they still have their own agency and there's some accountability oftentimes for why they might've married you.
So not that they actually knew, but I, I just discourage any kind of over, I get the guilt, but to decide to not protect yourself as you're getting a divorce, I discourage that. Yeah, don't turn your guilt into, you know, not setting yourself up for security post divorce. That is not a good process. Agreed.
Yeah. Yeah. There's also the idea [00:11:00] when you were just talking about it, like just because you're gay and want to get divorced, there could be any, like, there's a myriad of reasons why you might want to get divorced. You can fall out of love with somebody and, you know, whether you're still straight or not in a relationship, whether you were bisexual at the beginning or not, or, you know, you could have other toxic relationship things.
So it is interesting to me that being gay turns into this other type of betrayal that seems to be different. Well, and people have an infidelity response to them. Therapists do. That's why I think therapists try to break them up or support the breakup. You know, Esther Perel, have you ever heard of her?
Yeah. Yeah. Right. She has a great line about people who cheat. She's like the old, old school was if you cheated, getting a divorce was support. Yeah. If you get it, if you're the old school was, if you cheat, you divorce. The new shame he talks about is when you cheat and the person stays and then people shame them.
So the same dynamic holds in mixed orientation marriages. If she decides the straight spouse decides to [00:12:00] stay, there's a lot of shaming, like what's wrong with you that you would decide to stay. They don't get a lot of support. They end up when he comes out of the closet, she goes into the closet. And then as a couple, if they stay together, they both in the closet.
Yeah. Do you think that shame, I mean, is that shame directly connected to our view of being queer as a society? No, I think it's well, what do you mean? Say more. Like it, you know, it may be shameful to be queer and that, you know, it's not the norm, it's the different thing. You're choosing this other different, this different life that isn't the same, like heteronormative relationship.
So any type of difference you choose turns into a potential opportunity to shame yourself or to, you know, be shamed by others. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Be shamed by others. I think the shame I was talking about though is the betrayal, right? So everyone has, like, they, they go to, they latch onto that, but absolutely, in addition to that is the shame of.
Now, I'm going to lose heterosexual privilege and that's a big loss people. We don't talk about that enough. It is a freaking privilege in this world to be able to hold hands, kiss, [00:13:00] say, I love you overtly love a partner. In fact, hate crimes since 2016 have gone up. I think I don't even know, I don't know the percentage, but it's 10 percent or something just by couples holding hands, gay couples, that's all they're doing.
Yeah. That loss of societal. wHat's the word? Placement, I guess, like where you're at in society is a huge, yes, a huge loss. I get, I can feel that after, you know, being with a a female partner now and where we're at, we can see the difference in how we're able to exist in the world, how our families see us in the world, it's a huge, huge stressor.
It is. And then, you know, then your gay family, your gay family, your family sees you, they might know that you're gay, but when you have a same sex partner, now they see that you're gay, and that's a whole other loss and work to do. Yeah. So if you're realize that you're gay and you're in or queer and you're in a straight marriage what advice would you give that person?
What should they do? What questions do they ask themselves? That's a good question. So here's one of the things I do [00:14:00] say, and this isn't popular and people aren't going to like me saying this. You might not like me saying this, but I've seen it happen so much. You live in Michigan. So do I. And, and it happens here.
Sometimes I'll tell the gay spouse, don't tell your spouse until the divorce is over, because if she decides to lie and say, I saw him with his penis out looking at gay porn and our children were nearby, or I've seen this happen with men doing this to women, a lesbian comes out of a marriage and he'll make up a story.
She was giving her partner kind of lingers and the door was open and our children could have walked by. If you put that out there, and we have a lot of conservative court systems here in Michigan, you might be lucky if you get supervision with your children. So, I want to help protect you as a parent more than I want to help protect the whole partnership.
But so many queer spouses say, Oh, my spouse is going to be fine with this. We have gay friends. We have a gay son, for God's sake. Her father's gay. His mother's gay. But I say to them, when you come out, And she finds out she has a straight or a gay [00:15:00] spouse. That's a whole, that's a, that's not homophobia.
That's a betrayal that you've never probably seen in her. Interesting. So how do you navigate whether or not you should talk to your partner about it and stay together or not and get divorced? How do you do that? I have, I have no answers other than I, I get all these different, do you want to be sexually active?
These are the questions I ask the queer spouse, you know, what do you imagine? Do you, cause some people are like, you know, I just want to have sex, transactional sex. I don't really want. a relationship. Now, sometimes that's because of the internalized homophobia. They've not imagined themselves with a partner.
And over time, then that comes to fruition and they're like, I do want a partner. But there are some people that just want to play around, but, but have their sex and their relationship with their wives. So I kind of just. Make them think about everything and then come to their own conclusion. Right, sure.
So it could be an opportunity to talk about open marriage, or having sex with others, or, you know, navigating it in that way and seeing where your spouse is. Hopefully, you know where your spouse lands on some, [00:16:00] on a lot of these things. But you're right, when it comes to like the dissolution of a marriage or a relationship, you don't know what shit's gonna hit the fan when it comes down to it, you do not.
You don't. And I'll tell you, I have worked with, so in the 90s, I wouldn't do this. I didn't understand things as I do today. And I, I don't do it like this now. But, you know, we have in Michigan here, right? We have Arab Americans, Black Americans, Asian Americans. We're very religious. And so they would come to me and they'd say, I know I'm gay, or I know I'm lesbian, and I don't want to live that life because it's against my religion, it's against my culture, it's against whatever.
So I'm going to heterosexually marry, but have a sexually active life. with same sex partners and I wouldn't do that in the 90s because I, I, back then we thought I didn't have cultural competency back then I didn't understand, but also idea that if you stayed closeted was, was to lead a life of depression.
That's what we were taught, and the research showed in psychology, but it didn't take into consideration. People who are you know, a different race, a different [00:17:00] religion. So today, if somebody comes to me and says, I'm going to stay married, but I'm going to be sexually active and I'll never tell her it's not my essential court's determination and decision.
I will share with the client. What do you think will happen? If she finds out what, if it all comes to in the end, it's their decision and I support their decision for whatever they want and that's uncomfortable for people to hear, you know, I'm sure. Yeah. It's hard to think about in a marriage to make a decision for yourself.
That's not for the other partner. How do you balance that in a relationship? How do you know when it's okay to make a decision for yourself and not try to save the, this could also be my training as a female that's trying to take care of it. I'm sure I'm telling, I'm bringing that to the table for sure.
But how do you know the difference? How do you know when to choose yourself and not the relationship? I mean, it's a good question. I guess when I think about the cases I've worked with, the more depressed they get by staying in that [00:18:00] situation, by not going on and, and you know, like they'll think to themselves and I'll ask them, do you want to go another?
You're 40, you're 50, you're 60. Can you see yourself living another 20, 30 years? And grieving the loss of you'll never have any kind of gay expression. And I think that's really what does it for them is, can I, I could suppress it for a long time, but now, now it gets harder, it gets too hard to do. Yeah.
Yeah, you have to, if it's too hard for you, you shouldn't stay in it. No matter what, right? And you have to decide what that level is for yourself. What advice would you give for the straight person in the relationship? So your husband just came out, um, What do you do? So you want to really be careful about the therapist you pick because there's so many therapists that aren't informed about this and aren't helpful.
There's not a lot of support out there. You know, they used to have the Straight Spouse Network. I think, do you know what they have now? It's called I forget the name of it. There is something. I'm not sure, yeah. But it changed names twice, so now I don't remember it, but, and then you got to be careful there too because there's a lot of victim [00:19:00] mentality in some of those groups and a lot of gay bashing of the husbands and a lot of the women I see don't want to do any of that.
Yeah. They just want to sort this through, and I always tell them it's not fair, and I'll tell the guy this too, it's not fair to say to your wife, I'm coming out, I'm gay, and you can't tell anyone. Well what about her? She deserves the right to share her story and her pain and get some feedback and sort this out.
So I believe she should have some outlet. And to find the right people that will support her making her own decision, not with an agenda. Yeah, so find the people that are going to be listeners, that aren't going to, yeah, walk through with their own, their own assumptions of what your marriage should be, or what things you should choose.
That's difficult, there's not I'll tell you something. There's not what? There's not a lot of people out there that are able to do that. No, there's not. But I will tell you this, and this is probably a thing of how women are conditioned female socialization. When a man finds out his wife is queer[00:20:00] at first it might be titillating, and then he might be into it a little bit, but it was as soon as he goes, wait a minute, you're really queer?
And she's like, yeah, I'm really queer. Four to six months, he's out. For women, it's years before they're out. So women will last longer with a gay husband than men will last with a queer woman. 100%. Yes. That checks out where I've been, but I do it's interesting. You talked about like the fetishizing of a man, if their wife comes out, I think that's a norm in our culture.
Like you're queer, you're bisexual. I am into that. Right. And I think a lot of couples and I've heard a lot of times that they'll try out that dynamic with their husband for a while and then realize that that isn't working. You know, it's not working. It's more for them than him or whatever. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, right. Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. If someone comes out later in life and wants to get divorced, what do you think are, you know, post divorce, a man decides to get divorced, what are some of the [00:21:00] stressors and things that they should consider, you know, after they've come out and they're in this new life outside of their marriage?
Well, okay, so one of the things queer men yeah, don't take into account is, this is their wife, not their mother, like, because I'll have these guys in my office saying, Can you believe she wouldn't let me talk to my boyfriend? I want to bring my boyfriend over for dinner and she didn't want me. I'm like, she's not your mother.
You're not a teenage boy, but in some ways he is because in the coming out process, you're kind of regressed and you're going through this teenage, but it's, you have to remember, this is your wife and she doesn't, she doesn't want to hear or see the boyfriend. So having more sensitivity for what this must be like for her being willing to be not secretive, but private about your life and, and measured about when you're sharing and what you're sharing.
Especially with the kids. When did tell the kids, that's the other thing. A lot of straight spouses, because they feel so betrayed, they'll end up telling the kids and trying to turn the kids against. The gay spouse, which is so awful because in the end that straight spouse is going to be finding out that, [00:22:00] that the kids will be against her because she, they took, she took them away from their parent, other parents.
Yeah. So Be kind, you know, as you're coming out to ensure that the relationship in your family is set where they need to be and there's not stressors so that you're not losing time with their kids so that you have a good relationship with your kids, you know, there's stuff that's out of your control.
It sounds like what about now you're divorced? It's maybe six months where you're out and you want to start dating, bringing, you know, you have this gay life. with your family now. It's a whole new world. You're not married anymore. And it's different than getting divorced and, and being straight, because people are used to that.
It has its own shame out in the straight world, but being queer, you know, coming out after you've been in a straight marriage is a whole nother ball of wax. So what do you what advice do you have for that space? Yeah, that's a very good question. I mean, especially when there are kids involved no, I don't know the ages, we know different advice for different ages.
you know, if the couple [00:23:00] can talk openly about this, which many can, that's the primary thing is, how are we going to do this? How are we going to negotiate this? How are the kids going to come over and my partner will be there or won't be there? I don't know, it's all, I, you're asking great questions, but I feel like it's so individualized, you know?
Yeah. So you have to ask the questions of like, what, you know, what's best for my family, how will my kids react? You know what about setting up the time when, you know, bringing your first gay partner to, to home, right? They should just, just do it, talk to your parents first, you know? Talk to the parents first, talk to the kids about it, let them know this is happening, but you have to be able to take a firm stance too, because maybe people are never going to be ready, because they don't know how to be ready, they don't know what to do, and the queer person often has to take the lead on that, and do it anyways, and let the consequences Yeah.
So you have to be brave and then be brave again and be brave again. It doesn't end. Right. And everybody has to be brave, right? So yes, the queer [00:24:00] man for sure or woman, but also those straight spouses going through their brave, braveness, the children having to address this and most kids are resilient. They get past this and they're, it's really not a big deal as much as it is to the spouse.
Yeah, right. And especially when they're younger kids, you know, they, they still love you as their parent. They want to just know you as their parent, they're not going to shame you for being gay or, you know, they might be mad at you for getting divorced and choosing yourself at first. I mean, that's definitely a thing, but yeah, they're going to stick around with you.
I remember just bringing up my oldest kiddo because he was 10 when we were going through a divorce. He was, you know, understood more about what it meant that I was queer and so, but it took him like a year to ask me about it. It took him a little time to, you know, like go through the new process of meeting my new partner and this new life.
And then he was like, Oh, okay. Why did you do this? Why couldn't you be married when you were? Gay, like why couldn't you have stayed with dad, you know, like all those questions. So it's [00:25:00] intriguing to watch kids take that process, but then he was felt good about it when I was honest with him. So that was awesome.
And I love that he's asked those questions, and I think that should be honest answers, you know. Yeah, don't lie to your kids, they'll know. Right. They will know. I mean, obviously be developmentally responsible and don't tell them all the details, but right. So if somebody is, you know, obviously should have a therapist, you know, what other supports do you think and somebody to talk to that will support you in a really honest way?
What other supports do you think somebody needs as they're going through this divorce process? Maybe legal support, you know, just to see what's out there and what, what would happen if you are to break up and there's something for queer men called husbands out to their wives. It's called how, and it's all over the country.
It's at a Yahoo group. You can join anonymously. So that I know exists for the gay, for the gay men, bi men queer men. But I don't know. As far as other supports, it's really trying to find people. It's hard because once you tell somebody, [00:26:00] you know, then you risk that they're going to tell a bunch of people.
Now you're completely outed prematurely prematurely. So it's really being selective about who you're inviting in to this information. Yeah, is what's the danger in being outed? You know too soon. You're not ready. You're not ready for you're not ready So it might dysregulate you it might be very bad for your relationship with your children your employer Your family and so now you have all these negative consequences that are occurring because somebody decided for you about the timeline I always say coming out is like a traumatic event like It's similar to when somebody's been sexually abused, when, and I'm not saying that queer people have been sexually abused, but it's such a similar dynamic to come out and tell people about it, and then to do the work about coming out.
If you rush somebody out of that closet, you will re traumatize them. It's not fair. Yeah. So take your time, choose the [00:27:00] people wisely that you're connecting with keep your island small until you're ready to go bigger and take the time you need to heal and get through the process, right? Yeah, now here's another thing that people don't think about.
Just because you know you're queer doesn't mean you know what kind of queer you are, right? So I was raised Jewish, Reformed Jew, Judaism. I know what kind of Jew I am. I've tried other kinds of Judaism in my life. I looked at Orthodox, I looked at Conservative, I've tried other religions, but Reformed Judaism is how I was raised.
But we're not raised to be a certain kind of queer, right? So like, for instance, I was raised in Oak Park, Michigan in the 70s, and I was very attracted to it. It was Arab, Chaldean Arab black and Jewish. And I was a very, very attracted to the black and Chaldean men. They were very masculine, total turned me on.
And I thought, well, this will be what I'm, my dating pool, right? When I go out into the. to the scene. And when I went out to the scene, they were like, these Arab and black men were like, girl, sashaying around, you know, and I was like, [00:28:00] completely turned off. Back then I was riddled with internalized homophobia.
I'm not attracted to that. Today I'm not turned off by it. But I'm not attracted to it. So that wasn't the kind of where I was and that I wanted to be around. So a lot of men, what they'll do, and women too, will go out into the community, get the support, but then there'll be like, I can't find my people.
And they go running back to their straight spouse. Like, and the straight spouse feels like, Oh my God, you're coming back to me. This is so great to know that you, you, I matter that much to you, but it's usually more about, I can't find my people. So that eventually the person goes back out into the community and finds what they were looking for and then there's another coming out.
Right, so we could backlash in our, our thoughts about whether or not we're queer or not or how we feel in that because of security, right? Because of the security our last relationship gave us. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And a sense of belonging. Oh, yes. Yeah. This is the world I've known forever. I'm connected to it now.
Yeah. Now I'm in [00:29:00] the gay world. I feel like I don't know if you ever watched I am Kate about Caitlyn Jenner, however you feel about her. It was a great two year reality show, but she, she, she was on that bus. I don't know if you saw, but she was nothing like these other trans women who were just, they were, they were grassroots, you know, they, they've been their whole life and they weren't his people.
They weren't Caitlyn's, her people. And she was struggling to find other trans people. And I remember thinking the same is true for trans just because you come out and you transition doesn't mean you instantly have a community you don't. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I've been, I've gone on that journey to my partner and I of figuring out who we want in our lives.
Now it's a whole new, like we spent our entire childhood essentially married to our husbands and now we're out and it's like, it is a whole new world. You have to rebuild in your mid thirties or later. And it's a lot. It's such a lot. It is a lot. And I'll tell you, this is not a popular thing to say. I never say it to a client, but I will think it if I see it.[00:30:00]
The gay male community is vicious and cruel. I'm not gonna lie, especially around looks. They're horrible about our looks. So if you're over 60 and you haven't kept up your looks, which means your hair, your teeth, your body or whatever you're probably not gonna have a very good experience in the Western United States gay world.
On finding a partner and a new life, you may have to pay for sex. You may find some friends, but you're not, you may not have, and I hate to say this, but it's true. And so then that becomes an issue, right? So now they realize, and so sometimes they will come back in their 60s and 70s, back to their straight spouse.
Because like you said, for security. Yeah, yeah. It's disappointing to hear about that, but I can see the understanding of there's like these whole other cultural dynamics, you know, I felt that too when I got, we were camping and we ran into another group of lesbians that were there and they were like, you look like a lesbian, but you don't look like a [00:31:00] lesbian, you know, like there it's, there is a lot of cultural I don't know what it is.
There's new norms that we have to understand, but also understand that we don't have to look like every other lesbian or every other gay man that's out there, right? Like, we're all different, just like all humans are different, right? 100%. Yeah, yeah. And there's these new, there are these new norms, though, that you have to, when you're, when you've lived in this heteronormative culture.
Try to understand and that can be a lot of work, right? Because you don't know. How does lesbian life work like? Yeah, I mean especially for lesbians, right? They stay friends after they the romance ends the sex ends But the friendship endures and now you're a newly out lesbian and you're new You you go you partner up with somebody and she's best friends with her ex That's not going to fly because in heteronormative land, it doesn't fly, but in lesbian land, it flies.
In lesbian land. Yeah. You discussed the internal homophobia and I know that's a struggle that many of us have, whether you came out early or, or late how, what work should you do as a queer person to [00:32:00] unpack that? And what are some resources that. We can connect to. Yeah, this is like the core of my work with LGBT is internalized homophobia, right?
Because we have to remember our and even today even though it's better for teens They still struggle with internalized homophobia before they come out I mean after they come out too, but before they come out they're doing exactly what I used to do Looking in the mirror trying to pass it straight. How am I talking?
How am I walking? How am I moving my hands? How do I all this stuff? So you're internalizing all these negative messages So that you can pass and get rewarded for a heterosexual privilege. And now that you come out and you abandon all that, that doesn't mean that all the negative, horrible messages you gave yourself are gone.
So really it's addressing the language, like somebody saying that guy looks too femme, well that's internalized homophobia, or femme phobia. Or in the queer community, male community, we say things like, he's so straight acting. I'm constantly challenging my clients to say, what does that mean? Does that [00:33:00] mean gay acting is feminine and straight acting is masculine?
You know, so it's really challenging the way we talk and the way we think about things and the, and the beliefs that we taught ourselves. So we've talked a lot about how things are brutal and hard and difficult and getting through all these things are hard. But what are, I mean. Of course there's silver lining.
If you come out, you can live these free, amazing life, but there is this process that is in the middle that is murky and difficult and hard. What advice do you give to clients to, to get through that space? That just like you said, that once you fully come out of the closet and you integrate this, there is a whole world for you that you, that you, it's like going into Technicolor, like the Wizard of Oz, you know, black and white into Technicolor and for the straight spouse too, even though she's.
Moving through a really hard time, there's going to be an opportunity for her to self reflect and maybe for her to heal. I, again, I only [00:34:00] hate to hesitate because I know people don't like generalizations, but so many straight women marry gay men because the gay guy isn't patriarchal. With her, he's willing to be influenced.
He's having good communication with her. He cares about her. He helps her dress. You know, he helps her, you know, give me her feedback about her looks. And it's just a different kind of man. And maybe that's why she married him. And maybe this is an opportunity for her to tolerate another kind of man.
And she doesn't necessarily need that. Yeah. Well, that's not a great word. I know. Tolerate an extra man? I hear what you're saying though. Right. Yeah. I get that. And I get it's, yeah, it's, ,It really is this Amazing how much grief comes with the coming out process and divorce process. And I think it, it struck me and it still does even I've, you know, I've only been out and divorced for, you know, two years essentially.
And the process takes [00:35:00] time. And I think it's, sometimes I feel this, I feel like I am disappointing people when I say that, like you are not going to get over it right away. This takes years. This is years of work, consistent work and support and compassion for yourself. Well, and then here's another thing.
I'm glad you said that. So it's not just a loss of heterosexual privilege, but then there are dust bunnies in that closet. So dust bunnies, I call things like, I never dealt with my mother. I never dealt with my father issues. I never dealt with my sexual abuse. And this is an opportunity for the straight spouse to, to finally get real and go, okay, wait a minute.
This is, it, it forces honesty and it forces unresolved issues to surface. And if you don't deal with them, you're going to be miserable. It's really time to deal with them when that goes on. Yeah, yeah, I can say a hundred percent that happened to me. It was like everything popped up. I'm changing my whole life now.
Might as well deal with everything, become my whole self, work through all the things, and it's super fucking hard. It's really hard. It's so good. I think every day I just, more and more I'm like, today I felt [00:36:00] good for 95 percent of the day. And, you know, it's been a couple days since I broke down and I'm like, hell yeah, I'm doing it, I'm doing it, really, like, that's a good thing.
Well, I'm glad you just said that too, and I appreciate you saying this, because I will say that for the most part, when I've dealt with men and women who are queer that leave a heterosexual marriage, they always grieve it. They'll still say, ten years later, should I have done it? Did I do the right thing?
I really wish I could have stayed. They know they did the right thing. It's not like, it's not a regret as much as it's, Should I regret? And you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, people don't understand there's two victims in this. It's the straight spouse, but it's also the LGBT spouse because we're taught to be only heterosexual and cisgender as children, so you can't come out and you can't even know that you're not cisgender or, or LGBT in childhood.
Mm hmm. Yeah. It's a process and you want to connect back to what, again, what we were saying, like what is secure, what feels good, and that's natural. Yeah. Right. [00:37:00] Do that and be brave enough to choose yourself again the next moment. Yeah. And again and again. And again and again. Yes. All right. So if we're going to wrap this up and you were talking to a gay man that walks in your office today, they realize they're gay, they're gonna get divorced.
You know, what advice are you, would you give them? What's the most important thing? Is to get as much support as he can for himself so that he has the sounding board and has a foundation to go to because things could go wrong in so many different areas. And to really be measured about how and who to whom he tells what's going on and I know usually he's very excited because he's in the later stages of coming out and he, I'm coming out I want the world to know I want to let you know kind of thing.
But I, I try to help them be more mindful and intentional around that. Be mindful and intentional. Get the support you need. So [00:38:00] true. iF more people want to seek out your advice or your work, where can they find you online? They, yep, they can find me at joecourt. com. J O E K O R T. And then I'm on all social media.
I'm really big on TikTok. I have 670, 000 followers on TikTok. And everything is at Dr. Joe ort. D R J O E K O R T. All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today. You're a wealth of advice. And I mean, there's so much we could talk for hours and hours about this topic and keep going.
There's so much. Okay. So find yourself online, check out your tech talks. I appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.