Episode 16: Matthew Phifer; Co-Parenting in High Conflict
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, we delve into the profound insights of Matthew Phifer, a therapist, speaker, and trainer, specializing in navigating toxic relationships, narcissism, trauma, and emotional abuse. Tera and Matthew focus on the challenging terrain of co-parenting with a toxic ex, stabilizing both yourself and your children after divorce, and healing following a relationship with a narcissist. Matthew shares invaluable tips on establishing boundaries and cultivating a healthier post-divorce life, especially when dealing with an abusive ex-partner. His expertise sheds light on crucial aspects of post-divorce recovery, offering listeners practical guidance and a deeper understanding of the complexities involved. Tune in for a wealth of wisdom and actionable advice from Matthew Phifer on creating a more stable and empowered life after divorce.
Content warning before you listen: Matthew and Tera discuss emotional abuse and living with narcissistic partners. If this content is triggering for you, skip this episode. If you decide to listen, please have a plan for getting the support you need following the episode.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Matthew Phifer, MSEd
Matthew Phifer, MSEd, is a therapist, speaker, trainer, and toxic relationship, narcissism, trauma and emotional abuse expert. He is the founder and owner of Matt Phifer Coaching. His trainings, which feature original work, has been presented in multiple states and countries and he is regularly featured on the radio, publications, and online. Matthew’s videos attract millions of viewers and his podcast “The Matt Phifer Experience” has been heard in over 100 different countries and is featured on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Iheart Radio. Matthew has two children (Isaiah and Gabby). He resides in Dallas, Texas after spending nearly 20 years in New York and Washington D.C.
You can find Matthew on TikTok @mattphifercoaching on Instagram @matthewlphifer and on his podcast The Matthew Phifer Experience.
Show Transcript
Hi, Matthew. Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you very much for having me. It's an honor to be here. I am looking forward to talking with you about high conflict today and how that works in co parenting and how parents can work together through, or maybe not work together, through some of that to get us started.
Can you give us a glimpse at your background with divorce and where you're at today? So I am a therapist, author, coach at this point in time, I'm a full time content creator, podcaster, I've worked with at this point, probably thousands of people with high conflict divorces and and co parenting.
So even though my background is in therapy I've worked as a substance use therapist. A lot of people don't know this, but when it comes to substance use and and addiction, there's a lot of similarities and there's a lot of parallels and correlation with people who are in toxic relationships.
I've also worked within the family [00:01:00] court system. So I've worked hand in hand with a lot of attorneys, with a lot of lawyers. I've I do a lot of consultations with people who are in who do not only mitigation, but what's the term I'm looking for? Mediation? Oh, I'm losing my term.
Mediation. Mediation. For some reason, sometimes my brain doesn't work and it's like I haven't had coffee yet and my brain doesn't work and it wants to say meditation instead of mediation. So I've worked, I do a lot of consultation with mediators. On mediating high conflict situations. So a lot of background.
I used to do in home visits with people and highly abuse situations. I was contracted by CPS on whether or not kids should be taken out of the home, you know, placed in foster care. So a lot, a lot of experience with high conflict. Abuse of all kinds. And so and now spend a lot of time consulting and interviewing lawyers on, on situations and how they can, how they can see it.[00:02:00]
Thank you for that. You do have a ton of experience in this space. And I'm really curious when you are working with attorneys or if you're talking to parents or talking today, how would you Describe or define relationships that are high conflicts. We have abuse and you mentioned ones where there might be substance abuse involved.
What other types of high conflict situations do you typically consult in? So the, the type of, you know, there's, you know, we have abuse that is very apparent. Obviously, if someone is left with bruises, when there is physical abuse, when people are bashing the walls in with hammers and things like that.
People can see that. And people, you know I don't want to say that that doesn't get, those things don't get swept under the rug because they can and they do. But there's still physical evidence that people can see. Where I do, where I find myself doing a lot more of the consultation are the stuff that people can't see.
The [00:03:00] type of abuse that is more verbal. Where I call it flirting with the lions of abuse as a therapist. I can say that they're that they've crossed over. But the problem is, and a lot of times even lawyers, attorneys and judges can see it. But the problem with people who are using more verbal tactics and more strategy.
Is that they, they haven't really crossed the line where, where sometimes even Joe, you know, people say that family law doesn't see it. A lot of times they do, it's just that they can't do anything. Their hands are tied because they haven't physically done anything. They haven't. necessarily said anything wrong, but it's insinuated and people, everyone who's reading the text messages or whatever might know exactly what this person is doing, you know, but there's but there's not much that they can do because there's not, they haven't crossed that line over into physical abuse.
And so and it creates a [00:04:00] large problem for people who have been with this person, right? Because now where you're You're triggered. And so now when, when we're talking about abuse of any kind, what's happening is that that person, the abusive person wants to maintain control. And so and so really what we're doing, what we're dealing with is a person who is maintaining control.
And I always. Can I always call it like a remote control, even though you aren't together, you're still able to control you with that remote even though they might be in a completely different state, but they know exactly what to say, how to say it to maintain control. They know exactly what to say, how to say it to your children to maintain control.
And, and before you know it, it's, it's almost like you're still in the relationship. Sometimes it might even feel like it's worse than the relationship that you were in before. Yeah. So you have, you know, lots of different things to deal with your healing posts, that relationship you have supporting your children, you have getting out of the relationship and setting yourself up.
So for starting from that part, you're in this [00:05:00] space where maybe the abuse isn't as prevalent outside of the relationship, as you might think, you might not be able to utilize any of that in court. What do you do as an individual, the person that's being abused to start off setting boundaries that support you going through this process?
Well, when we talk about boundaries, we have to talk about The different type of boundaries 1st, 1st and foremost. So when we talk about the different talking about, there's, we set boundaries in 5 different areas. So we have physical boundaries. That's very clear, right? There's only certain people who can touch just how they touch us, how close in proximity that they can come to us, things like that.
Those are, I don't even want to say they're easy boundaries because people struggle in all areas, but they're just like we were talking about physical abuse. It's easy to see, right? It's a lot easier to describe things like that because it's physical and you're actually sitting there watching it. You have boundaries when it comes to your finances and, and, and.
Under finances, there's it's [00:06:00] kind of a close A and B finances slash personal personal items. So, for example, in a co parenting situation let's just say that it is you know, because a lot there's a lot of misconceptions that that's only. Women struggle with abuse and women struggle with setting boundaries with their co parent.
Men also struggle. So maybe you're paying child support, but then the mother is also demanding that you also go above and beyond. There's certainly nothing wrong with going above and beyond. And despite what social media says, most fathers have no problem going above and beyond. But when we're talking about someone who is abusing that.
Now, I've worked with a lot of fathers who they've, they have been. They've had their car repo because they're paying their exes rent and mortgage. They have had, you know, they're not taking care of themselves. And then all of a sudden that is now used as as a weapon and and, and family court [00:07:00] as custody.
He can't even. You know, he can't even maintain his own bills and this and that, but it's because they're overly paying, right, into in, you know, to the person on site and court doesn't take, take those things into account, it's considered a gift. And so, knowing your, knowing your limits, knowing your boundaries financially and with your personal possessions.
And then we have also emotional boundaries, right? This, this is one that is a little bit more difficult, but when I describe it, it makes a little bit more sense. People who struggle with people pleasing. And people and quite often people are in these type of relationships feel like. Everyone should feel the same way about the circumstances, right?
That that we that if I'm angry about something, then everyone else needs to be angry about it. If I feel good, or and this is the reason why a lot of people who struggle with people pleasing feel like if I. If I'm just nice to everyone, then everyone is going to be nice to me, that everyone's just going to be on the same page.
And we have to realize that that's just not true. [00:08:00] You can be nice to people and they may not be nice to you. And so then we have to assert boundaries, you know you know, knowing that people, not only are they allowed to feel very differently, but that they are going to feel very differently. Right. So then we have mental, mental boundaries.
Some people call them conversational boundaries. There's certain things that we just don't talk about with our, with our co- parent. So when we're talking about you know, let's say that you're dating someone, let's say you went on the first date, you know, someone who is a problematic co parent might demand, where were you last weekend, right?
Someone who struggles with conversational or mental boundaries will probably tell that person, well, I was out on a date, this and that, blah, blah, blah. You don't owe that person anything, right? You guys are now, X is right. So you guys are now part. You don't have to tell them your whereabouts, where you were, what you're doing.
Doesn't matter if you were slept, if you slept with that person, right? I tell people like you you know, and then when we talk about those type of boundaries, especially with co parenting, it [00:09:00] kind of gets into like, also, like, let's say that you took your child late to school. You don't owe that parent.
You know, let the school tell them at, you know, at times, certain situations, you do need to tell them, you know, but you know, so there, so we have those type of boundaries. And then lastly lost track of where, where my boundaries are. So we have conversational boundaries, mental boundaries and then we have boundaries around our time slash energy.
You know, so when we're talking about boundaries on our time, like and like kind of where we go and things like that you need to come pick up the kids right here, right now, because. you know, because they're acting up and let's say it's their time. No, you don't. Right. Or, um, let's say that it's your time with the kids.
I'm coming to get the kids right now because because clearly you're at work and you left them with a babysitter and I didn't approve of that babysitter right there. They don't have to Right, depending on, depending on your, your circumstances. And so knowing where you lie with [00:10:00] those boundaries and knowing how to assert those boundaries becomes very key and very critical.
And it also becomes very key and very critical on how you lay out the the divorce decree as well. Yeah. And so what if you're in this scenario before you have your divorce decree laid out, you're at the beginning of it, you're trying to set boundaries in all those areas I'm thinking one question might pop into my head, you know, I've co parented, like, in the house with this person for a long time, they've always known this information, shouldn't I, won't it be healthy for me to share this information with them?
But then on the other end, if you're trying to get out of a space where you're being abused or being, you know, emotionally abused or You know, pushed outside of your comfort zone consistently by this other person and you're trying to get into the space. What do you do to help yourself get into the space of actually being okay with setting those boundaries?
I think it's kind of that space before. You have to stop caring what they think. How do you do that? How do you stop? So [00:11:00] the reality of it is, is that and this is, this is, If you struggle with people pleasing, you need to write this part of it down and you need to rehearse it. You have to allow for yourself to be the villain in their story.
You have to understand that going back to what we were just talking about with mental and emotional boundaries, they are going to think of you as the villain. They already do. And they're actually, and this is actually, actually the one time that I actually defend the narcissist or the abusive person.
They're allowed to. They're allowed to think that you're the villain. They're allowed to have their own story. They're allowed to think that you're the problem. They're allowed to tell people, despite what people might think, they're allowed to tell people that you were, you know, the, the cause of the divorce.
They're allowed to have those, those, those stories and those feelings, those thoughts about you where people who struggle with people pleasing, they want to change. The way that people perceive them. No, I [00:12:00] didn't, you know, and so then you find yourself over exerting yourself trying to show that trying to prove yourself to that person.
When we begin to let go and say, you know what, they're allowed to think whatever it is that they want. Right. It makes such a huge difference. Now that's easier said than done, especially in the beginning. When we do get to a point where when we're starting to get to a point Of allowing people to think what they want.
We have to sit there with those uncomfortable feelings and sit there and, and just acknowledge and, and, and acknowledge and say like, you know, they're allowed to think what they want. And in the beginning, that's very, very uncomfortable. As you get going, as you get used to, and as you kind of work those emotional muscles and those mental muscles, those muscles begin to get stronger to a point where it's like.
Okay. They're allowed to think whatever it is that they want. Now, with that being said, there's a fine line, because the reality of it is, is that we do care what people think. We always, we always [00:13:00] have, we always will. And people who say, I don't care what people think. Yes, you do. Right? So we, you know, we do want people to think, that's very natural though, to want people to think highly of us, to who we are.
Connect with us, you know, but at the same time, we shouldn't allow for people who think poorly of us to change our position and change, like, the direction that we're taking our life because we care too much about what that person thinks. Mm. Yeah, it's hitting me hard. I'm definitely a people pleaser. I've been working on healing from that working through that.
One of the things I'm thinking as you talk through this now is that if I'm becoming or if someone is, you know, becoming the villain in the other person's story, I love that. Like letting yourself be. What, you know, they think they are, you know, using tools. I have heard like gray rocking or other things where you just completely shut the other person off and only give them very important information or [00:14:00] relevant information, not necessarily important.
How do you, how has that worked to support your kids? So now your kids maybe are going back and forth and you don't have necessarily a good relationship with the co parent. There's lots of questions I have around this, but at the beginning, how does setting those boundaries affect? Kids typically, and I'm guessing it's different in different scenarios, but it's good for them, right?
It's good for you to be able to do that. Tell me why. It is good because the reason why it's good for you to set boundaries is because the kids, as they get older, start to realize that they need to set some boundaries with that person themselves. And they, so they need a model, and they need to, they actually need to see that it's okay to disappoint my parents, right, to disappoint for people to, you know, for them to be, because here's, I'm getting ahead of myself here's the thing about, about kids who grew up in circumstances like this, is that if they don't begin to learn how to assert boundaries, they're going to allow for that parent or other people, maybe their significant other when they get older, to [00:15:00] continue to control, control.
They're not going to actually feel like they can be in control of their own life. They're going to allow for other people to dictate the things that they, that they, that they do. And so what you want, so because of co parenting, yeah, when, when they're with that other parent, yes, they're going to have to deal with some of the, some of those ramifications.
That's very true. But you can actually. Show them and actually teach them better by when they get to your house, it can be a a relief, you know, that they get to experience, you know, you'll, you'll, they'll come to your place and, and I've had parents tell me that they literally see their Children do that.
It's just like a breath of fresh air, and they describe it as they get older, like, you know, when I, when I come here, I could just be myself. And even if it's, I don't care if it's 50 50 custody, even them being able to express themselves and being able to feel freedom. Even if it's half the [00:16:00] time is a complete difference.
There's a is, is enough of them experiencing freedom for them to know that that's what they want to experience as an adult. If you were to stay together in a relationship where they never experienced that, then it's like someone who's in prison literally their entire life and then they just don't know what it's like to actually be free.
Thinking about kiddos in these scenarios and thinking about the difference they must experience in between each space. And so when they're in the space where the parent, the parent who isn't, you know, abusing substances isn't, you know, the healthier parent in this scenario. We can define what healthy means later, but the parent that is the one that is being abused or the victim in the scenario what are some signs maybe that kiddos often do in that scenario where you can see that your space is the right space for them?
Because I can see that kids sometimes maybe get more emotional when they're at home with [00:17:00] the, you know, with the parent, that's the healthier parent or, you know, what are. You know, you're saying in the breath of fresh air, but there's this space before they get there where you can see that they're healing too.
You know, what are some signs that you can tell that your kid, that you're really supporting your kids in the right ways and they're, you're doing the right things? Well, I mean, it, there's there's a lot of different things and sometimes it depends on the age of the child. To a lot of people's surprise, they might misbehave with you.
And so a lot of people think that well, they misbehave with me because You know because I lack control and discipline and things that sometimes that can be true, but sometimes they misbehave with you because they feel safe and comfortable to be able to, to express and to actually show, to actually show tamp tantrums.
Sometimes kids are quote unquote behaving themselves out of compliance, not out of. And that's when I say compliance out of a negative thing not out of discipline not out of maturity, it's because [00:18:00] they're afraid of the ramifications and. And. Children who do that out of compliance and out of fear, right, that's, that's a very, that's really actually suppressing, that's really actually masking.
And so sometimes they might actually get to you and unfortunately they feel like they can let all of that out and express and sometimes, and that's the reason why it's so important to to be an emotionally mature parent as well. And and find in, you know, and helping your child find some healthy outlets and situations like that.
Some other things is going back to, going back to healthy boundaries. This is really hard, but sometimes your child might. believe some of the things that the other parent is saying. And it's important to have conversations about that. And it's important for you to feel like you don't need to take over control and try to prove to your child and allow them for your child to actually have their own thoughts and own feelings about how they feel about the other parent.
You know, I've, I've found a lot of, [00:19:00] a lot of people in situations like this, try to prove that the other parent is abusive or that they were cheating and things like that. Your child might have a completely different experience. They might love the other parent. They might hate them. That doesn't, you know, but for you, it's important to allow for you to have some healthy mental and emotional boundaries, boundaries with your children too.
And for them to feel exactly how they feel, whatever it is about about both, both sides of the coin. Yeah. So how do what are some good healthy boundaries for kiddos as you're going through this? Like, how can you support them as you're leading up to the divorce and, you know, maybe. they start going to the other parent's house and you're nervous about that, like you're nervous that they're going to be there, whatever, and go through all these scenarios.
But how do you support them through the process? What are some of those key factors? So I think probably one of the more common things is when the other parent, Is talking crap about you. Right? Maybe the other parent says that you're the cause of the [00:20:00] cause of the divorce. Maybe they lie to them and say you know, that you cheated.
Maybe there was some truth to that. You know, who knows? But either way, I'll kind of go through both scenarios, but I would say this is probably the most common. So the child comes back home and the child says, The other parent says that the reason why you guys got divorced is because you wouldn't stop drinking, right?
So let's just let's instead of Trying to prove that the other parent is a liar We want to allow for your child to have their own feelings and their own thoughts about that scenario. So, we simply say, you know, Oh, really? You know that's, you know, thank you, you know, thank you for letting me know, you know.
Well, your other parent, they're allowed to think whatever it is that they want, right? Just kind of like what we just talked about. They're allowed to think, they're allowed to think whatever it is they want about me. They could think whatever it is that they want about the divorce. You know, they're allowed to have their own [00:21:00] story.
I'm allowed to have my own story, too, right? And that's just not how I feel. You're allowed to have your own story, too. How do you feel about it? Right? And allow for them to have their own conversation and allow for them to have dialogue about it. Now, here's where people make mistakes. Parents make mistakes when they start to get really defensive.
With with their child. Well, I believe it, right? That's the that's where there's that's the part that people are scared. Well, let them believe it, right? And so what you want to do is like, okay, well, you know, you're allowed to have your story like, you know, but what makes you believe it? Now, here's the important part, the words that come out of their mouth next, that's no longer manipulation.
That's the that's their own truth. Well, I believe it because one time I came in your room, and, you know, I saw an empty beer bottle on your nightstand. Well, to a child that might actually, to them, that might actually be you drinking too much, you know, or whatever. And so now you can actually have dialogue and you can actually [00:22:00] turn what meant, what was meant for manipulation into a more positive thing.
So, okay, so does it bother you, you know, when you see me drink and this and that, and maybe they say, yeah. So maybe, you know, now you guys can have dialogue on the amount of drinking or if you drink in front of them, things like that, right? Now. What, even though that, that parent tried to break you guys apart through that, it actually brings you and that child closer.
Hmm. Yeah. What do you think that is? Because you're giving the child the opportunity to trust themselves in that scenario. Yeah. So they're trusting themselves. You're not trying to, you know, children, they may not be able to describe manipulation, but they can actually, it doesn't feel good. Right. They actually don't want to get in.
They actually don't want to get involved. The other thing is that you're giving them autonomy over their own thoughts, over their own feelings. They're able to you know, to have their, their own opinions about the different things. And so all of those types of things feel good and feels good to a child.
What about a scenario [00:23:00] where heartbreakingly you have to send a kiddo to a parent where they are not having a good time, where they are not liking the other parent, where they're kicking and screaming before they go? How do you support a kiddo in that situation? One of the difficult pieces to this, I mean, let's assume that there's no physical abuse, but going back to what what we were talking about with with mental and emotional boundaries.
One of the hardest parts about, about healing from people pleasing is that people are allowed to not have a good time. They're allowed to not have a good time. They're allowed to go to their other parent's house and not enjoy it. There's going to be, we have to remember that there's times where they're going to be at your place, they're not going to enjoy it as well.
Those are very, that's very difficult for people who are healing from people pleasing to remember. But one of the things I tell people is that we're not. As parents, it's not our job to, this shocks a lot of people when I say this, it's not our job or responsibility [00:24:00] to make sure that everyone has a good time all the time, especially with our children, it's to teach them how to have all of that feel all of their emotions, not just the good ones.
We have to change our perception of what emotions and feelings actually are. And to understand that even the art, the perception of, I don't believe in negative emotions, but we have to, we have to understand that even our negative emotions our perceived negative emotions are good and healthy. And so we, we want to teach and help and work, you know, because even as an, as an adult, guess what, there's going to be times where we have to go, go to go places and do things that we don't necessarily want to do and things like that.
Now, with that being said, obviously. You know, you heard me give that disclaimer, no physical abuse and that sort of thing. Obviously if they're kicking and screaming because they're expecting abusive situations, then, you know, obviously you'd have to, to contact an attorney and go through, go through the [00:25:00] go through the process that way.
If that is a, the scenario that you might be in where you're, you're, um, believing that the kiddo is getting physical abused or physically abused or maybe has experienced something that could turn into that, what's important for the parent that is not doing the abusing to document, keep track of, you know, obviously go to an attorney but should they have evidence ahead of time, you know, what things do they need to make sure they're paying attention to and keeping track of through that process.
Like I mean, they, you want to pay attention, you want to document you know, different things that the child might be saying, obviously you want to document like bruises and, and those sorts of things. Now here's, here's the, where it's, you know, you also kind of want to be, I always tell people you want to be proactive, you want to talk to your attorney, um, and you want to be proactive because you don't want a scenario.
So this is where it kind of gets. Very [00:26:00] convoluted, so to speak you have to understand that despite what people say on social media, there are people who use situations like that as a, as an excuse to try to punish the other parent. So you have to understand that a bruise, like a lot of bruises, especially as a child, a lot of Children have bruises, um, because of sports, because of playing in recess and things like that.
So you're gonna have to do, you're gonna have to understand that what I teach people and what. Most CPS and what most legal systems kind of learn is, is this disagreeable or is this unacceptable? You want to know that, you have to understand that like if there's like one bruise on a knee, that's very different between, you know, black and blue bruises on a back, right?
Very, very different. [00:27:00] Because people are constantly, consistently bumping their knees, especially children, elbows, things like that, you know, so you know, one bruise, you know, a couple of bruises, like in areas that are very common for people to, to, well, if someone were to fall, especially a child, you know, they have them on their hands, on their knees, things like that, very, very different from Black and blue, right?
And in areas where it's not common for people to be hit, especially if those things are consistent. You want to kind of show a pattern. A one time incident is very, very different from. You know, every time they come back there you know, I noticed that there's a bruise on you know, right across there, you know, a handprint, you know across their face and things like that.
So, or things that the child might be saying or things that the child might be reenacting is another big thing that, that children do, right? They're reenacting certain things with their, with their their toys and with [00:28:00] their animals and things like that. The other thing, you know, if you suspect those things, you obviously can if you suspect those things and you can't necessarily prove it you know, contacting and and having your child involved in therapy is always a huge help because they can tell those things through play therapy and that sort of thing.
Okay. So get your kiddo, a therapist, document things that are consistent, get yourself a therapist through this process, have your attorney on call. Okay. Is there any other things as you think through this, if you're any other tools or supports that you need to have as a parent going through this process that we missed?
Meditation, you want to start practicing mindfulness. You know, you really want to start, you really want to practice mindfulness and, and, you know, a lot of times we kind of know whether or not someone you know, a lot of times, even though someone may have been abusive towards you, they may not be abusive towards the child.
We also, you know, we also, you know, I've [00:29:00] seen, I've worked a lot of different cases where the person wasn't abusive towards the child, you know, and so We don't want to, you know, if there hasn't been a situation like that, I'm not saying that those things can't happen, but we don't want to overly anticipate those things.
If we haven't seen those, those patterns before because a lot of times what ends up happening is I tell people. If you're looking for it, you're going to find it. And I don't mean that in a positive way. I mean that like every little detail that you see is going to look abusive if you are kind of in that in that space, so to speak.
Right. So so you, you know, you kind of really Want to be present with, you know, you know, a lot of times we kind of know whether or not our partner is capable of doing those things. Obviously, there's certain situations where people where things might, might be surprising, or they might introduce someone else who introduced someone else who is a friend or family member that that might become [00:30:00] abusive, you know, so we want to be aware, but we don't, we don't want to be, we don't necessarily want to anticipate it if those behaviors weren't present to begin with.
Yeah, I know the anticipated pain is something that's really difficult to get beyond. That's true. Especially when you've gone through pain with your co partner or co parent it's important to be compassionate and supportive for yourself through that process. I Want to switch just a little bit to talk specifically about narcissistic.
partners and co parents. I think narcissism is thrown a lot in our culture around like he's a narcissist or whatever. And sometimes those are just specific characteristics that we might see are sort of like a narcissist, but then there are people who are actually narcissists. So in your mind, if you're, if someone's a narcissist, what types of characteristics might that individual have?
Lack of empathy. It could be, you know, so there's different types of narcissists. But grandiosity, but, you know, [00:31:00] here's, you know, obviously you can go through the DSM and see a lot of the characteristics, but here's where I would I always describe narcissism in a story, right? I don't know if you or, you know, your listeners remember a book called Aesop's Fables.
There's a, there's a story that, so Aesop's Fables has a lot of different stories in it. And one of the stories was a story about a lion. A lion, I don't remember if he was sick or if he had a, or if he was pretending to be sick. But the lion would was instead of going out to hunt, he would sit back in a cave and he would wait for animals to walk by.
As animals walked by, he would say to the animal, Oh my God, I'm so sick, like, please come in here and help me. And so the animals would go in there, they would help him, and then he would, he would devour them. He would eat them. Well, one day a fox walked by. And the fox the lion said to the fox, you know, Oh my God, I'm sick.
Come in here. Help me, you know, please. I, you know, I [00:32:00] can't, I can't even take care of myself. And the fox said, I noticed that all of the tracks all lead in towards the cave, but none of the tracks actually make it back out of the cave. And that's exactly how I would describe a relationship with a narcissist.
Everything is all working towards that person. The finances, who you talk to, where you go it's all about them. And the reason why I put it that way is because narcissists look very different depending on the type of narcissist. And a covert narcissist might be very, might come across as more of a victim, might come across as more meek, a little more quiet, right?
A lot of times people talk about the classic narcissist, which is the grandiose, who's the loud, the center of attention, that sort of thing. But a covert narcissist might, might not ever raise their voice. Might not talk, might not talk loud. Might you know, but might be highly, highly manipulative. Might might have a complete smear campaign.
And you notice that that [00:33:00] everyone who you're, you're talking to is all Siding with the narcissist, right? You notice that all trails lead back, lead back to, back to that person where in most healthy relationships or healthier relationships, even if the relationship is going a little bit sideways, there's a little bit more of a balance.
Right, where, yeah, there's, there's a lot more back and forth. There's there's a lot more compromise. There's a lot more meeting in the middle, you know, so if you notice that you're in a situation or you, someone you love is in a situation where it's all about that 1 person, regardless if they are. The center of attention or kind of more mild than meek, then yeah, there might be a situation where you're dealing with someone who's narcissistic.
Okay. How do you what specific challenges is that often pose when you're trying to co parent with somebody now outside of the house? I'm guessing it's different whether they're covert, covert nurse, narcissist or grandiose and they're, you know, out there, but what are some of the specific challenges that we would face or that we would, could see co [00:34:00] parenting with a narcissist?
They still have control, right? You still have, there's a loss of who you are. You don't feel like you have, um, you know, it's still, it's still all about them. The kids are about them weaponizing the children against you can, I tell people who are going through a divorce with a narcissist to understand that you're probably going to end up back in court again.
You know, so trying to use the, the legal system as as a point of abuse, that sort of thing. They might try to use the kids as weapon, weaponizing them through trying to spy on you, reporting back to the parent. I mean, there's a plethora. There's not, uh, I've seen just about everything. And at the same time, nothing would surprise me all at the same time.
But I would say those things are probably the most common. What are some we talked about boundaries and all the different five boundaries, obviously you need to set all of those with a narcissist, but is there any specific tools that you think would be good for somebody to have in their pocket? I would say reading books because really boundaries [00:35:00] You know, a lot of people ask me what boundaries to set my answer is I don't know the those boundaries belong to you.
You know, my boundaries are going to be very different from your boundaries and and so on and so forth. So kind of understanding reading books and understanding who you are as a person. Where you're, you know, where you're, you know, really when we're talking about boundaries, core essence of boundaries is who's responsible for what, you know, you're responsible for your life, your decisions, you know, those sorts of things.
And when you kind of understand like the things that you're responsible for, it makes setting boundaries a lot easier. So get to know what you're responsible for on your end as a co parent, but also, and also do your own healing, you know, work through that space because as a, as a person on the other side, the best thing your kids could have is somebody who is.
stable and healthy, supportive. Yes. All those things. Absolutely. One last question for you. If you are talking to our listeners that may be thinking about getting divorced or going [00:36:00] through a divorce process that is high conflict, maybe they're divorcing a narcissist or being abused, what do you think is the most important thing for them to have in mind as they're going through that process?
Understanding that splitting up with someone who is high conflict is the most dangerous point by far. And so you don't want, you never want to discount what what they're capable of and you want to come up with the next strategy. So your first point, you know, and you want to do all of this in quiet. A lot of times, here's where a lot of people, especially victims, make some big mistakes.
They think that if they Let the person know that they're leaving that they're somehow going to change and things like that. And that's not going to happen. And you're putting yourself into some potentially severe, significant danger, you know, so you want to start kind of planning your strategy. You want to do that with people who are outside of the bubble.
When I say the bubble, I mean, like people who are outside of even some, some of your friends and some of your family, some of them are going to be very supportive, [00:37:00] but even outside of that. And so you want to have a plan a, um, You know, together that might take a few weeks or a few months. And you also want to have a plan B that yes, this person found out and I need to leave with the clothes on my back, you know, my, my documents, my important documents, you know, they're safe.
My parents house, we're at a friend's house or whatever the case is. And, you know, and I need to leave while this person is at work or whether, you know, hopefully not while they're sleeping, because that, that could be very problematic, but, you know, but I'm leaving today or I'm saying I'm going to work, but I don't plan on coming back today.
What do you say leaving while they're sleeping is problematic? They always could wake up, right? They wake up, um, they, you know it's very nerve wracking for the person trying not to wake the person up. You know, I always tell people that you know, there's no perfect exit strategy, but you know, [00:38:00] they probably already have a plan in place of what to do if you're leaving.
Long, far before you ever considered leaving. And so, for you to leave in the middle of the night, and they already had like, they're already two steps ahead of you, it's probably gonna be you know I definitely wouldn't do that without, like, police escorts if, you know, I'm not saying, you know, that police escorts or family member escorts but even with family members, depending on how bad it is, could, could still be, be very problematic.
wHo in your area what professionals should you have on your side as you're going through their process? So you're talking about make sure that there's people that know about the scenario that are outside of your immediate circle of people because, right, the year could be, that could be problematic.
We don't know when conflict hits, you know, who's going to be on your side or not in those scenarios, who then. abuser has talked to in and out of those scenarios. But so who, you have an attorney, there are other people that you should have on your [00:39:00] side? Attorneys, attorneys, therapists you know potentially coaches, divorce coaches.
You know depending on the severity, you might need like shelters and not for profit agencies and things that that that are there for you as well. People who are outside churches, people who are outside of the bubble people who aren't going to judge people who aren't going to, you know, well, what did you do to push that person there and that, you know, that type of stuff.
We can work on, we can work through putting those pieces back together and understanding how you gotten into it later on down the road, but the first step is we got to get you out, you know, and you know, that's more important than, than trying to, you know, you can figure out the other stuff. I tell people you learn about the destination while you're on the journey.
So, yeah. These are hard times for people who are going through divorce and in scenarios like this. So I appreciate the work that you're doing and helping them get through that and everything that you've given us today and know that there is [00:40:00] hope. Like you said, the hardest part is the actual split.
After that, there's tools and ways people, other people support you to get past that. That feels hopeful. Hope is good. Oh, if people want to find more about you, the tools you have out there where can they find you? I'm all over social media. So Matt Pfeiffer coaching on TikTok, Matthew L. Pfeiffer on Instagram.
Matt Pfeiffer Coaching on Facebook. I also, so you can follow me on YouTube, but my YouTube channel is turning into a true crime podcast. And so keep that in mind. You know, so if you're into true crime for some people, true crime is very triggering for other people. They really enjoy it. So whatever, whatever part of that spectrum, you know, kind of just understand that part of it.
But also, you can have a lot of information on my podcast The Matt Pfeiffer Experience. So so I have The Matt Pfeiffer Experience as a, as a as a podcast, and then I'll be launching my True [00:41:00] Crime podcast here in a few weeks. All right. Well, thank you so very much. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing all of this with us.
You're, uh, such an awesome resource. Absolutely.