Episode 19: Lisa Johnson, Supporting your kids through high conflict divorce
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, we're thrilled to introduce our first guest of the year, Lisa Johnson, co-founder of Been There Got Out, a high conflict divorce coach, and certified domestic violence advocate. Lisa expertly navigates the complexities of supporting children through a high conflict divorce, shedding light on the profound impact that conflict during divorce can have on kids. Throughout our conversation, Lisa shares invaluable strategies for parents facing this challenging terrain, offering insights into creating a safe and supportive environment for children amidst turmoil. Tune in as Lisa provides actionable advice on supporting kids, navigating parenting time with an unstable or unsafe parent, and fostering a secure home environment. Join us as we delve into the essential topic of guiding children through the challenges of divorce with compassion and resilience.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Lisa Johnson
Lisa Johnson (she/her) is the co-founder of Been There Got Out, a high conflict divorce coach and certified domestic violence advocate who has successfully represented herself through scores of court appearances. Her case, published in the Connecticut Law Journal, is being used as legal precedent. Her live testimony helped pass Jennifers’ Law in Connecticut, the third state in America to expand its legal definition of domestic violence to include “coercive control.” She and her partner, Chris, the male half of Been There Got Out, coach people in high-conflict relationships, divorce, custody battles, and co-parenting hell so they have the chance of the best outcome in family court and beyond. They also offer a weekly Legal Abuse Support Group for those dealing with narcissistic opponents in legal matters. Their book, "Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances'' was released in March 2023.
You can find Lisa online on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Twitter, Been There Got Out Podcast, and Been There Got Out Book.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Lisa, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club!
Thank you. I'm so glad that you're here today. I know we're going to talk about some tough topics, but I think this is really important for our listeners and a lot of people are going through issues with high conflict in their divorce. So the more we can talk about it, the better to get us started. Can you give us a glimpse of the work that you do in your own history with divorce?
Okay, so my partner, Chris and I have a company called Been There, Got Out. We are high conflict divorce coaches. We're really strategists and we fill in a lot of the gaps that attorneys and therapists don't do. So our clients tend to be people getting out of toxic relationships in high conflict separations and divorces.
Because custody battles are our number one thing and we say co parenting hell. And so we help them have the chance of the best outcome in family court and beyond. We know that divorce is a tremendous money making industry and most people have never done it before. And so they end up [00:01:00] being very vulnerable targets.
So it's, really important to have people that understand and can hopefully, you know, save them money with the attorney. And again, fill in those gaps. All of our clients are dealing with some level of domestic violence. A lot of times it's not physical, much of the time it is too, but a lot of the emotional abuse, financial abuse, legal abuse is something I know we'll get into and that's our specialty.
But yeah, we have clients all over the world. We have male and female clients. We have same sex relationships, heterosexual relationships, all kinds of things. We have people who are fighting about kids and, and pets sometimes. And having gone through this myself for, 10 plus years outside of the relationship.
We love to bring like radical empathy as well as tremendous experience to the situation. What brought you to start working in, in conflict? You're just intrigued by supporting that, that messy part of divorce. Not at all. [00:02:00] I was a high school English teacher. My bachelor's as well as my master's is in education.
And I was with my ex for 20 years. I never thought we'd get a divorce. I thought we were. basically best friends with some weird red flags around a few things. And then all kinds of stuff started coming out in 2013 in particular. I realized it was more painful to stay than to go. So I got out and thought, Oh, I'll, you know, we both agree it's over.
We're going to have an amicable situation. We have two kids and I'll finally get some time to myself on the weekend. Yay. And that's not how it happened. I've basically been in the legal system for. 10 years and representing myself for six and 100 court appearances and these past few years. And I, so I started documenting parts of what was happening because I thought about writing a book and then It turned into a lot more than that.
And, of course, [00:03:00] conflict was the center of my life, and I couldn't go back to regular teaching because I was always in court. So then we, Chris and I we each were coming out of, you know, these toxic long term relationships. And, of course, there's so much conflict involved, and my background in education and teaching the art of persuasion in writing and learning it in terms of Speaking and doing so well in the legal system, I thought this, this is our thing.
Like we can, we know what we're doing and we've had a lot of success. So we're going to focus on high conflict and I became a state certified domestic violence advocate. Chris became a certified high conflict divorce coach and this is just our thing and we absolutely love what we do. We only deal with really difficult situations.
Yeah, it's, it's so needed. I think there's more difficult situations than we think about when we go through divorce, like amicable, easy divorces on the minority side, right? Well, actually it's, it's not, it's actually, yeah, I mean, amicable is a tricky word, but yeah. We say normal [00:04:00] divorce. Like normal divorce is about 90 percent of the cases.
10 percent is considered high conflict because in the beginning it's really hard to tell because everybody's angry. The difference is that usually four to six months into a divorce process or separation, because a lot of our clients are not married, have never been married, is that people start seeing the bills and they're like, you know what?
Got to start calming down doing what's in the best interest of our Children moving on with our lives. Like it's just not worth it. The opposite is our cases where the anger factor just increases over time. I mean, we're my ex and I are We're not eight, nine years into litigation, most of it post judgment, and he filed a 4 million defamation lawsuit against Chris and I.
It's like, don't you have anything else to do with yourself? Just, it doesn't go, it doesn't dissipate. So that's, that's the difference between high conflict. But most people do settle down. It's not that they have to be best friends. That's a myth, like amicable co parenting [00:05:00] is a myth that I think a lot of people think, Oh, I should be this way.
First of all, that is never. ever going to happen with any of our clients because of the level of domestic violence and personality disorders where people, you can't change with therapy. So yeah, I mean, high conflict is a small percentage, but it's a tremendous amount of people. Yeah that brings up when we're just talking about custody and co parenting.
I think it's right that a lot of people when they first get divorced, like you're saying it, you know, it could be like, we can figure this out together. And then the frustration and anger and animosity and all that builds up over time. And you also, maybe when you get out of divorce, you're, you're thinking, I want to yeah.
Try to be friends with my ex. And then at first you really don't want to, you know, whether it's good or not, it's hard to like be close to them and, you know, go through that grieving process together. So you're saying, you know, it's a lot more typical for people not to have this beautiful co parenting relationship that works out really well.[00:06:00]
Right, if you couldn't communicate then, what would make you, you know, make it necessarily better now? But at least you'd only have communication to work on and not all these other hundred things that you have to work on if you're living together. Anyway, so that's another thing. And that takes, that takes time too.
That, that takes time for anybody. So if over time things are really high conflict and you have kiddos and you're, there's custody struggles and you can't come to an agreement, you know in those cases when there's a custody battle and Even, you know, in any situation, what are some things that you need to keep in mind that are important for you to advocate for yourself when it comes to custody?
Do you, you know, what documentations do you have in place? You know, what, what things do you need to have in your back pocket? Okay. So With our clients, we know because of the legal abuse that happens, we know that they are going to be back in court, probably, so they basically live their lives like I have, knowing that every communication that they have with their ex, even [00:07:00] though they're writing to their ex, it could be seen by a judge, a custody evaluator, a mediator mediator, Some other professional.
So we want to make it. We want to make sure that they have something called clean hands. We want to keep the record clean. So we always say it's almost like you're living under the court's microscope. You don't have privacy because whatever happens, there's something called the discovery process that they can ask to see stuff and usually correspondence between a couple after they split.
is used as evidence in custody battles all the time, whether it's on a parenting app or just through text or email. So, so that's important is that always know you cannot afford to sort of get at these knee jerk emotional responses to a difficult ex because that could be used against you in court.
Another thing that Always happens with our clients who have Children is at some point they get accused, falsely accused most of the time of something called parental alienation. So when let's say an abusive partner doesn't have a [00:08:00] great relationship with the kids instead of taking accountability for whatever they might have done that created that situation, they'll blame their ex.
which we'll call the targeted parent. And so that's, that's a terrifying thing because you hear, you know, in the news of all these terrible stories about people who have been accused of parental alienation when there's been abuse happening and then the kids get taken away. So one of the things that Chris and I do that I think is important for anybody is to understand the custody factors.
They're also called best interest factors, depending on what part of the world you're in. They're, they're a little bit different. In different states and country, but it's basically the same idea. You know, doing what's best for the kids. And then also what we now teach is something called the alienation factors so that instead of people being terrified of being accused of it, they understand exactly what that means and how those cases are built number one so that they don't inadvertently do what's called alienating behaviors, but also because there's so much [00:09:00] projection from toxic people to understand that your ex may be doing the things like, for example, sending poisonous messages to your children about you.
So you can start building up your own case against that other person and also keeping them in check. So communicating strategically is something that we do, that we teach more than anything. for people going through, actually at any stage of the process, but especially during a separation and during a co parenting relationship, where the goal again is you're writing to your ex, but the audience could be some stranger that gets involved with the case.
But you're, you're, the goal is you want to start documenting that person's patterns of behavior over time and the impact that that has on your children, as well as your relationship with your children. So that's just like briefly, a brief answer. Yes. Yes. When it comes to documentation, that's come up several times, like people are just like, take documentation.
Does it count for you to say like, my kids came home today and they fell [00:10:00] X, Y, and Z way from their parents house? Or is it only text messages? Is it like calendars when, and when they're not taking the kids? Is it, or is it all of those things, you know, like how, what documentation is good documentation to have?
Okay, so that's a great question because people often say document everything but when you get to the point of going to court and you throw, we say throw over the fence like boxes and boxes documentation to your attorney, you're setting your money on fire because a lot of that stuff they won't be able to use and that's why it's so important to have what we work on with people targeted documentation, understanding what exactly the court cares about.
So your first example where you said Okay. Is it is it significant to say my kids came back from the other parent and this is how they felt? You can't you can't do that. That's that's considered hearsay because you're interpreting somebody else's feelings. So that wouldn't I mean, I'm not an attorney, but just knowing like that's You can't say how your kid felt [00:11:00] and then use it as fact because unless your child is there and most kids are not going to be testifying in court, then that's not significant in terms of missed access time.
That's important. So you could you could journal you could you could keep logs, but we always feel that it's stronger to send a strategic communication to say something like I'm confused why you missed that day. So it's not just. your records. It's that that other parent has the opportunity to respond and it's in either an app or something where you're both part of a dialogue.
And that person could say, that's not true. I was there or they don't say anything and you have it like they could have said, you know, that, that, that wasn't true. And it's now been documented that they have missed this day or this week or this month. Unfortunately, sometimes with some of our clients this year, they didn't see their child.
Yeah. Okay. So the documentation has to be seen by both. So send a text to follow up after a phone call to give the ex an opportunity to respond, you know, say stuff like that. It depends. It depends. I mean, this, this really depends on the [00:12:00] situation. You don't want to send text messages and things for everything.
Right. But generally, in terms of evidence that could be admissible in court, it's, it's really powerful to have a written record of the dialogue between you and your ex. Rather than just you reporting, well, in this state that this isn't like who knows if that's true or not, right? Right. Yeah. You could easily just write that up anytime.
All of us could build a case center. I want to make sense. It wouldn't be admissible in court. In cases when your ex may be abusive or narcissistic I think. Therapy is probably good for your kiddos, too. Is that something I'm just thinking about other ways that people connect, we can support our kids through therapy and, you know, we'll talk about that too with how to support them.
But is, is therapy or working, your kids therapists? Sometimes part of the court case too. Or is that out of it? I mean, I'm just thinking like all these ways about emotional abuses keep coming up. And [00:13:00] I know that you're an expert in that space. Like, how do you document that stuff that's tricky so that we do strategic communication.
But in terms of therapy, like generally, if you want your kids to get a therapist during a separation or divorce or difficult time. Yeah. Co parenting thing. Most courts encourage that because they know that therapists are good. We have a lot of content on how to choose a good therapist, what to look for in a therapist.
We know that rapport is really important. The thing that a lot of parents don't understand is they think that they have the right to know what is going on in those sessions and from interviewing therapists, they don't like that because you're not their client. Your child is, and they really need to be able to not have to figure out like who is the toxic one and who's not and what like they just really want to be able to treat your child and help your child.
And so sometimes parents get upset because they're like, well, I want to know, or make sure you ask my kid questions about this. that you won't look good if you do that. It's just like when I taught high school, I [00:14:00] don't want parents telling me how to do my my job. So a therapist needs to be able to treat their client, which is your child and you know, you should make it clear, like you're there to help if they need you, that if they need to reach out to you, but you really should not be interfering in in the treatment.
Yeah, yeah. So therapy is an awesome way to give kids autonomy and space to be supported in a case where their parents may be arguing. What are some other things you could do if you're the targeted parent to support your kiddos through that time? Okay, so one of the number one things you can do is get therapy yourself.
Because so much of the, so much of this involves what's called self-regulation. Like we can't be there for our kids if we can't get help ourselves during these really, really emotional times. Because often, unfortunately, and this is what we're working on now, a parent will weaponize a child by trying to turn them against a targeted parent.
And I say all the time how [00:15:00] when you're living in the day to day, they have all that power and control over you. But once you physically separate, they're limited to three things, money, kids, and the court. So money and the court go hand in hand where they can financially decimate you through the legal system.
But during and after that time, Then there's just the kids. And so a lot of people create what's called loyalty conflicts where it's like, okay, if you love me, then you need to hate or discard that other parent. And there's this whole system of rewards and punishments where the kid is in the middle and it's really, really hard.
And so sometimes a kid will come back from a visit with the other parent and say, Oh, Mom or dad said this about you and that triggers us because we're just like, Oh my gosh, like my kid believes this. So there's a lot of self regulation that has to go on with how we respond to kids who are in these loyalty conflicts and dealing with just divorce or separation in general and understanding that when kids have an abusive parent, they are also victims of domestic violence and they are dealing with all kinds [00:16:00] of what's called coercive control and emotional abuse.
And so Sometimes it makes us angry and we, we see our kids as like little narcissists themselves because they're, it's like they're parroting what the other parents said. And you're like, Oh my gosh, I got away from this person. And now my kid is doing the same behaviors. It's really, really hard. So it's so important for, for targeted parents to also get help to work through that.
So they can understand how to properly be there to support these kids who were again, also victims of domestic violence. Yes, yes. And I think thank you for that. I think we're talking all the time about how a lot of people are like, should I stay in the abusive relationship longer so that I can protect my kids?
Should I, you know, and a lot of times the case is then in that case, you're not actually healthy. And so taking the step to get divorced and get outside, you should get yourself healthy, right? You should be in this space where your mind and body are in a way to support your kids an actual stronger way.
Yeah, now that question about staying for the sake of the kids comes up [00:17:00] all the time and we've done like a video on on that and a lot a lot of content on that about how kids are affected when they're living in a toxic relationship when the parents are toxic together. And one of the things that people don't realize is that when you stay in those abusive relationships, you are modeling that that is.
Okay, for your Children. Not only is it okay, but that it's normal. So you are teaching your Children. No matter what you say that this is the kind of relationship that they're going to go into themselves because it's familiar to them. So that's really dangerous. So it's not helpful to say to a child.
Don't act like Mommy or daddy and I are acting right now. That's that's not not good. They're gonna they're gonna repeat the same Cycles, they're gonna they're gonna do what you do. So Staying in those relationships. I know it's really really hard I know it takes an average of seven to nine times to get out and there's all kinds of issues especially with children and feeling like you want to [00:18:00] protect the children and I know a lot of our Clients have said unfortunately, it would have been easier for me to just stay in some ways because I could have maybe done something, but it's, it's, it's awful either way when you're dealing with a really abusive person.
Yeah, yeah. And just thinking about kids and how to support them too, just more along those lines. So if you're thinking about thinking the kid, thinking of the kids more as also being a victim of the other person if they're abusive is obviously a really strong step in that direction, even when it comes to the poisoning especially.
But what are some things that you can do with your kids to talk with them about how the other parent might be, but not actually like share? You know, like, in a way that you're not complaining about the other parent or talking bad about them, so you have to, like, support their relationship with them, but also be able to share with them what the pattern is toxic.
I mean, is that possible? Okay, so I love that you're asking these questions because I'm doing this webinar [00:19:00] next week, actually, on how to deal with if your ex is trying to brainwash the kids against you. And so all of these are questions that come up. All the time. Like, what do I do? I want to tell the kids the truth, but I can't, but they're, they're not listening to me.
And, and one of the mistakes people make in these situations is thinking I need to tell my kid the truth. But the problem with that is the other parent is telling them, this is how things are. This is the truth. Kids see their parents as authorities. So when that other parent is saying, this is how things are, this is how your other parent is, the kid believes it.
Because they're like, why would my mom or dad lie to me? Then they come back to you. If you say, no, that's not true. This is true. You're basically doing the same thing that the other parent is doing. You're not letting the child figure out their own reality. You're not respecting their point of view. And if it's a teenager, they're like, who are you to tell me what to think?
Often they will just. Say you're you're trying to bash my other parent. [00:20:00] They don't care about the truth. They're not interested in the truth They're interested in how you make them feel and so the most important thing is to sort of honor their feelings Your job is not to show your kids this is what's real.
It's more to be there for them and, and just say, like, and to help them sort of do what we call co regulation. I mentioned that before with self reliance. Help them process their feelings and their beliefs and attitudes and behavior. Help them process it. And a lot of that involves helping them develop critical thinking skills where they learn, like, You know, the truth is, like, let's, let's, let's pick apart some of the stuff you're coming to me with that doesn't make sense.
You never want to bash the other parent. You can talk about behaviors that, if that makes you feel right, like, you know, ask questions and things, but it all has to come back to how that child feels, what are healthy relationships, applying it to other relationships in their life. Well, if it's your friend, you know, depending on the age of the kid.
If your friend had a situation like [00:21:00] that, how would that make you feel? A lot of teaching them empathy because often the other parent doesn't have empathy, but this is like a big, big topic, but a lot of it again, involves like learning ways that you can help support them. Trying to tell them the truth about the other parent is not supporting them.
They're not usually capable of understanding it. They're not adults. Like, we assume our filter, like, the way that we process things is the same thing kids don't. I know my kids later were like, the best thing mom did for us was she kept it together so that I could still be a kid. Yeah. They didn't want to be involved.
They don't want to know. You know, they just want to be able to live their lives as best as they can. And their lives have been disrupted, just disrupted. Like, we can get away from our exes. But our kids are the ones who still have to go back and forth. They're the ones who have to move back and forth.
Yeah. You know, their schedule has been completely. Shattered and for people sometimes think that they'll wait till the kids go to college to [00:22:00] separate or get a divorce. But I heard from a therapist that that's actually one of the hardest times because that's when kids are going out in the world to find their identity and then to take the whole foundation out from under them.
What did they come back to? Yeah. Like on the holidays from going cut, like who do they come back to? Everything is, is gone. Yeah, it sounds like they're, I mean, we could talk for hours about all the ways to do this, but what you're saying and what I'm hearing is that it's the strong foundation, the safety net that you're creating for your kids.
You can't explain the safety net to them. You can't tell them they're safe. You have to create the space for them to have their emotions, to, to be held, to be kids. Exactly. There's so many things that you have to do on top of that. You know, that's what we have you as an expert. I'm glad that you're here.
Yes. Giving the introduction. It's so hard. I think every time, every time I do a podcast and every time I talk to somebody about divorce, we're like, it's so hard. [00:23:00] It gets better and it's really important to get the right support though while you're going through it. Yeah, and there's a lot of support out there, like yourself, and that's awesome.
Yeah. One of the topics that comes up a lot too when I talk about abusive relationships, of course there's different types of abuse but the term narcissist gets thrown around a lot. And so there's clinical narcissism, correct? There's also, I think, just a general term we use as a, in our culture of a narcissist.
Could you talk about in scenarios where somebody is It's showing narcissistic behaviors in a relationship and they may be doing that to your kid and you got out. How do you talk to your kiddos specifically about that or how do you support a kiddo in that situation? Is it different? You know, what is the, I don't know, maybe it's not different.
Well, it's, I mean, it's tricky. It's a big question. And yeah, the word narcissist, like it's thrown around all over the, you know, all over the place. And with us, we think about like the labels don't, it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is, but let's focus on, Bye. Bye. Bye. how [00:24:00] that person's behaviors affect you or us or our children.
And so helping again, like it's the same sort of thing with helping them process their feelings. Like I know with my, my kids, like after my ex and I split, my, my ex just wasn't really there for the kids. He basically abandoned them and that's how it's been pretty much. But for a couple of years, my son would try to get together with his dad.
He would like have dinner and his dad would. make excuses about things like to not see him or to not pay for his college or whatever. My son would come home and just be furious and he'd be lashing out at me a lot of the times. And I remember one time in particular, I just said, his name is Izzy. I said, Izzy, like, do you, do you notice that like every time you come back from one of these visits, like you're so angry.
Like, did you ever think about that? Like, do you notice how angry you are? I didn't say anything about his father or what he was doing, but I was like, why, why do you, why do you keep, why, why, why do you think you say, cause [00:25:00] he was like a young adult at this time. Why do you allow people to treat you like that?
Like, you know, why, why do you keep seeing people, anybody. Who, who get you so upset all the time and that really made him question for himself like why am I, why am I subjecting myself to this to somebody who makes me feel bad every time I see them and it made him start thinking about like what, what is this person do that make me feel bad like I don't have to say anything so a lot of it is sort of just Maybe helping them see the behavior like or like starting with their feelings like, Oh, you're really upset.
I mean, and that's also a way to co regulate is to sort of observe a child and say, I see you look really upset. So so for example, they come back from the other parents house. A lot of kids are very dysregulated. After that, because they've been in this, this fawning mode where they're trying to do whatever they can to not get in trouble and not set the other person off, figure out how do I make this person reward me, you know, all kinds of stuff.
So they come back and they're usually upset and angry. So one way to [00:26:00] help them co regulate is to sort of just observe them, not to grill them. Oh, what'd you do at the other parent's house? Oh, did you have fun? Just not, just, just calm, you know, calm setting, nothing really planned right away. They come in, they could do whatever they need to do.
You just say, how you doing? And if they want to talk, fine. And if they don't, they don't like one of our clients told us recently that her daughter would come home and go into the bathroom and just put her head on the sink and start the water running and stare at the water. And she's like, mom, I just need.
I just need to look at water because that that just calms me down. I said, that's an excellent opportunity to bond with your child and also praise her for figuring out what she needs to do. You don't need to say anything about the other parent, but like, wow, I'm so proud of you, like how you realize what what calms you down.
This is what calms me down. Maybe Would you, would you ever want to like build a little fountain together that we can put next to your bed and whenever you feel like this, you have something that's easier than just like this [00:27:00] cold bathroom and sticking your head in the thing. But I mean, there's so many opportunities there where you, you're helping a child again, process their feelings without saying narcissists, without saying anything, but just dealing with them as needed.
You know what I mean? So in some ways it's different. In some ways it's similar. You need to be the safe place for them to land. And in these cases, we know, even though it doesn't feel like it, kids have one healthy parent, they can be okay. So that's why it's so important to learn what we need for ourselves.
to be calm and to not get triggered by them when they come back and test us with the things the other parent is saying, but to just be like, you know what? I'm here for you. I'm so sorry that you're upset. I'm so sorry. I see that, you know, whatever, I don't know what happened. You want to talk, I'm in the other room, but to not also come at them with like your own emotional needs because you're a grownup and that's your responsibility to take care of your emotional needs.
And a lot of people also make the mistake of enmeshing with their [00:28:00] Children. Yeah, I can see no, I'm just thinking through the last few years as we've transitioned and moved my kids, you know, my partner and I moved our kids in together and, you know, all this transition after divorce. And I do see like on transition days, specifically, I'm always like, I want to see them and I want them to be happy and blah, blah, blah.
You know, of course, that's my projection onto them, you know, I want them to come into the house and be happy and see me and give me hugs and love me. But no, you know, as you're talking about it, as I see them over the last Couple of years too, just thinking about their patterns, that they are often tired, you know, or they may be lacking some connection.
You know, in one of our kiddos cases, he was lacking a lot of connection from his dad when he came home and just struggling with that when he got home, you know, just, and then like, really begging for more connection with me, right. Please, please, please, please. And so we're trying to figure out where that came from and why he's feeling that way, but.
Yeah. Just honoring his feelings over time has made such a difference. I'm just letting him have it instead of being like, come home and be happy. And mom, you [00:29:00] know, right, right. Because you know what, from that other parent in our experience, that other parent expects them to behave a certain way. You know, we talk about the golden child or the mini me.
Like the kid realizes on some level that that person's love may be conditional. Yeah. And so to come back to the other parent and the other parent, like, can you be happier? Hug me. That's the same behavior. Yeah. That's the same expectations. You can't be yourself. You have to do what I want you to do. So it's so good to notice that and be like.
Oh, I don't want to be like, yeah, it is. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think I've learned a lot about that really over the last, Oh yeah, I'm just now I'm getting a little bit of emotional thinking about the connection with specifically my oldest kiddo as he's going through this transition and how he's been feeling like taking over my place and taking care of his dad, for example, and his emotions and trying to figure that out.
And I've always, I think as he gets older, it's easy for me to just be like, just fix it, you know? Or like, don't talk to [00:30:00] me that way. Or like. Just take care of it yourself instead of being like, oh, you, that seems really hard. Seems like that would be so much easier just to say, that seems really hard. Let's talk about that if you want, or I'm here for you, or I can give you a hug.
Yeah. Only if you want. Yeah. Only if you want. Yes. Yeah. Well, I just learned I just was doing the safe parent summit and I, I did a little bit of research cause I usually don't talk about parenting stuff as much, but now because of the book that we're working on in the webinar about dealing with kids who are turned against parenting or one parent, I'm getting more back into the parenting space from my education background too, as a teacher.
And one of the things that Was really helpful was something I heard from a child psychologist that I interviewed a couple of months ago and she said and I realized like, Oh, I should have been doing this to my kids and I wasn't. But she said that there's two things that kids need and want more than anything.
Control and attention. It almost sounds like a narcissist, right? Yeah. It's a child. Yeah. So your kids want your, they want to have control over something and they want [00:31:00] your attention. So she said, if you can spend 10 minutes a day. And just say to your kid, I am here for you. What do you want to do together?
Teach me how to do something. Even if they want to play a video game that you think is stupid to focus on them for those 10 minutes is an incredible way to bond with your child, where it's like, it doesn't matter how I feel. I'm here for you. Whatever you want to do. You want me to bake this cookie thing, anything you want, I'm here.
I'm going to do anything you want. I mean, within reason. Yes, of course. But I mean, that's how strong relationships develop. And kids know that they can count on you. You love them. You care about them. And you don't just have your own agenda where it's like, we got to do this, this, this, this, this. Like one thing I think I did do right in the past with my kids was we had it.
We always had a dog. Unfortunately, our dog passed away a couple of months ago. We always had dogs and we would walk to school. Even into high school [00:32:00] because they had a bus stop that was that was nearby and so walking together with the dog was a way for us to spend time together, but it wasn't like this forced interaction, you know, and the dog was the thing.
And so we walk together and we got some exercise. Sometimes we fight and I'd be like, you're taking forever. I'm just going to walk behind you or you can walk behind me because you're late, but it was still that routine of like, I'm here for you every single morning. Yeah. Yeah. It seems wild that just like 10 15 minutes is enough.
I've heard that from I think Dr. Becky Kennedy said that too is like. Giving them that time makes them feel so held and I'm like, I need to give them all my time. And he said, no, no, you don't. You don't just, just, just that they know that you're there for them. And even if you don't see them every day, like parent, there's a lot of parents who hardly ever see their kids, but still giving that attention and letting them have control over whatever it is that you're doing really [00:33:00] makes a difference.
Yeah, for sure. I'm also thinking as you're, as you're talking about it, one of the things my therapist said to me a couple weeks ago and she was like, doesn't it really suck that, that the safe house, the kids are more emotionally dysregulated a lot of times. And I was like, dang it. Like, so I'm doing all this work to be the safe parent and I get all the emotions and, but really it's a reward, right?
If your kids showing their emotions, if they're acting out, if they're asking for things, that's a, Reward is apparent to show that you're a safe person, right? Am I reading that right? Well, I mean, it doesn't feel like a reward. No, it doesn't. I had to deal with that. I'm cleaning up the mess doesn't feel like a reward, but you know, as time passes for me, I'm just like, Before I even had children, what I wanted more than anything was when I had children to have close relationships with them.
Yeah. And so I, I have that reward. I mean, nothing is perfect, but I, my kids, you are now almost [00:34:00] 24 and 20 and they, they tell me, they, we, we talk openly about. I think pretty much everything, like other people who know us are just like, Oh my God, kids. I can't believe they tell you those things. I'm like, but I'm, I'm so glad.
And that's another thing. There's, there's a book that I read. I actually have it next to me. It's I hope it's okay to say this. It's called conversations with a pedophile in the interest of our children. There's a therapist in town that I met years before I got involved in this whole arena. And she was she she interviewed a guy in jail who was a pedophile.
Because she wanted to know. Why he did what he did and basically how we could we could make sure our kids would be safe from people like him and I found it fascinating and the number one way to protect our children from abuse and this isn't just from strangers is to make sure that they feel like they can talk to us about anything where there's no secrets where it's not like I can't talk to this parent.
And if they can't talk to a parent, that they [00:35:00] could talk to an adult. That could help if something happens because talking to their peers can't really do much. They don't have that authority, but they always need to know that they can come to you and you will, if necessary. So cultivating that relationship, which I believe starts with those 10 minutes a day where they just know they can come to you.
You're, you will be able to do whatever you can. To take care of them. And even if you can't, you know, keep them away for an abuser, you can help them process, you can help them learn to advocate for themselves. Like, there's a lot of power there. Yeah. But it takes work. It's not like, oh, just do this and oh, everything's wonderful.
I mean, we know that trust with anybody takes a long time to develop. Yeah, again, there's the work. We gotta do the work. I'm just kidding. No, it's so worth it though. I was just thinking as you were talking about that, too, that another category that often comes up in conversations is the idea of the Disney dad, and it's not always dads.
It's like the parent that just gives the kid [00:36:00] whatever they want physically or goes and has fun with them every single time they have them for the weekend or like only does the fun thing, but it sounds like more and more what's more important is Having the space where they can be themselves, right?
Like share everything with you, share their feelings with you. You know, the things go away, but the long term relationship depends on the, their ability to talk with you and connect with you and have that space. Yeah, I mean, think about our own memories from being children, like I, I know a lot of our clients also, they're not the moneyed spouse and their ex will throw money again, not just men, but women too sometimes have a lot more money and they're like, I can't compete with that.
They're giving them cars or giving them boats or giving them all these fancy trips. Like I can't. But kids don't, I mean, they, they do certainly get distracted, especially teenagers, but a lot of times it's not those things that, that we remember. My parents are still together, but some of my best memories are from taking walks with my [00:37:00] dad to get ice cream, him standing on his head.
You know, in our living room, like dancing around, being silly. And I feel like that's the same thing with my kids. They didn't, they, I mean, we've had like fancy trips, but the things that they care about, like they love the dog, everything with the dog memory. It's not, it's not money. It's those, those moments, you know, where you.
Are having fun together. That's that's what human beings remember. It's not the fancy stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. I was thinking about my relationship to I came from a divorced family that was high conflict between my parents and I saw my dad every other weekend. He was very consistent about that.
But That was it, right? Like not very often. And I have very few memories of actually like connecting with him, like sitting and playing a game just with him or talking to him or sharing anything with him, you know, and now our relationship's terrible and we have no way to connect and talk. My relationship with my mom is another.
Struggle we're working through, you know, she was always there, you know, and there's [00:38:00] things that as you're talking to, she could have done, she'd always say, like, you'd be so mad when you got home from your dad's house. Like every single time you're always so angry. And I just be like, okay, go have your feelings.
Like, I didn't ask you questions about it. Or, you know, now I'm like, we should have asked questions about it or like, Asked me how it was a feeling or connecting with me as we're talking about it, but I can see the difference between that. Right. The connection, we at least talked about it or she noticed it, or she talks to me about it now.
It is, it does make a huge difference. Yeah. And what you just said too, about you wish you, you didn't have memories of playing a game that doesn't involve money. No, but that's something that we all want. Like our parents to play with us sometimes when you were younger, like to be silly. Yeah, yeah, and that can be silly in any way, right?
It can be playing cards, it can be going on the snow, going for a walk, like you're saying. Playgrounds are free, right? Mm hmm, right. Yeah. I think is there's so many things we've talked about and going through the list and I think maybe you just probably said [00:39:00] the most important thing, but I always like to add at the end, you know, like if you're talking to and somebody who's going through divorce in this high conflict way, they really want to support their kids.
You know, what is the first thing that comes to your mind that they need to know as they're going through this? They need to know that it is so much better on the other side. It is so much better. I mean, I was with my ex for 20 years. I, I thought I made a commitment to this marriage. It's not awful. Well, it wasn't for a while.
I didn't think and I just thought I this is it. This is my life Like i'm not happy. But I made this commitment and I just I am so glad that I got out because since getting out and I got out in my 40 So it's like oh no I'm, never gonna meet anybody and you know, who knows what's gonna happen with the kids I thought my kids lives would be ruined because I was raking up an intact family.
That's The, you know, my parents were together like nobody else in that side of the family was divorced. And I just felt like such a loser [00:40:00] and ended up meeting the love of my life, like this whole business, amazing career. The kids are doing great right before that jumping off that precipice was terrifying.
You feel like I can't do this. It's better to stay. I'm here to say, no, it's not better to stay like you deserve happiness. And unless you take that chance and make sure you do it with the right support and safely, and that's like a whole other conversation. But even though it feels like you can't do it, you can.
There are many, many people who have come out of this. And you come out with such an extraordinary sense of gratitude because there's such a contrast between what you were in before. And where you are now. It's like a huge opportunity for growth. I mean, for me, especially, and we didn't even get into my whole court thing in the 10 years and self representing.
And now my case is case law, like these personal triumphs that I never could have planned. It's like [00:41:00] you say you would never wish this on someone, but I'm so glad this happened. Yeah, and while I was going through it, I thought I was going to die. I was just like, I'm going to die. Like I can't get through this pain.
And it felt like every day I was waking up with a physical ball of pain in my stomach. I, I, again, like I felt like I was ruining my kids lives by getting away and it, it was the opposite. So just know that it is so much better. It feels, it feels really scary and it's really painful. But it gets so much better.
Right. I love that. Hope. Yes. And I'm talking about the growth and how much, you know, gratitude you have for that time. It is awesome. And then think of that's the feeling of being able to go through it yourself and do make a decision for yourself and build a life for yourself and grow yourself is just so empowering.
And you're modeling this for your children. You're modeling. It is that you do not have to tolerate this kind of [00:42:00] behavior. You deserve better. You deserve to be in a happy relationship. Like my kids are now, you know, for almost nine years with my partner, Chris, who's the male half been there, got out to they see us happy.
Like we're really happy and it's amazing. I mean, we don't live together. I think that's part of it is like live 12 minutes. part. So we're still in this honeymoon phase. Like we have this, you know, we can be creative together. We're both very chatty. Like the kids see this and I see, especially as the young, there are young adults, they are gravitating toward people that make them feel good because that's what they see.
Had I stayed. I don't even know what would have happened. Yeah. Yeah. So that's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that with us. I know we could get you have so much amazing work and everybody needs to go check it out. And I'm so glad to get a little slice of slice of you today and your work and your brain and everything you've done.
Thank you so much for that. If people want to go find you you have some new workout, but Instagram, [00:43:00] YouTube, you have your podcast, TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn, you're everywhere. Google you, right? Easy. Easy, easy. Yep. Just been there. Got out. And then our book, I'll just hold it up quickly. So this is the current book that came out last year in 2023.
It's called been there. Got out. Toxic relationships, high conflict divorce, and how to stay sane under insane circumstances. And like I said, we are really diving deeply into. now how the kids can be okay in situations like these, especially when your toxic ex is trying to turn them against you both in court and in life.
And there's a lot you can do. And I have this webinar coming up. It's we're going to be doing it again. It's free. And then we're going to be doing it in course. But if they just Google been there, got out, you'll find us. Yeah, awesome. I was just looking at, just on Instagram, all the stuff about kids that you have starting to come out is really amazing.
Yeah, go check it out. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you being here. Oh, my pleasure.
I don't, I don't know how to stop record, so I'm just gonna have to put the, I have my screen too small. Okay, there we go.