Episode 20: Amy Nielsen, Making Regulated Decisions for a Peaceful Divorce
Discover invaluable insights in this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, as Tera sits down with attorney and divorce coach, Amy Neilsen. With her wealth of experience supporting couples through divorce, Amy shares practical tips on navigating a peaceful divorce process and maintaining post-divorce harmony while co-parenting. Drawing from her own journey as a queer divorcee, Amy offers valuable advice on prioritizing your own well-being during the divorce process and ensuring that your needs are met. Tune in as Amy guides us through a process of self-discovery, helping us identify and communicate our needs effectively while navigating the complexities of divorce.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Amy Nielsen
With nearly a decade of experience as a family law attorney, coming from a family of divorce, and having gone through her own divorce, Amy is an expert in navigating the emotional, logistical and legal aspects of restructuring families. Amy is a California family law attorney and mediator who serves people all over the country as a Certified Divorce Coach. She focuses her work on keeping people out of court and focused on settlement. She has a special interest in supporting members of the LGBTQIA community.
You can find Lisa online at www.bloomlegalcoach.com and on Instagram.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Hi, Amy, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Can you get us started by giving a glimpse of the work that you do and maybe a little bit of a history of your own divorce? Sure. I have been an attorney for just about 15 years now, and the last decade have been focused exclusively on family law cases.
And most recently, I have Even more focused on settlement and all kinds of alternative dispute resolution practices. And so that looks like working as a mediator and as a divorce coach, supporting people through the process of divorce besides just the legal parts, the emotional and logistical parts as well.
And the shift in my practice came in large part because I went through my own divorce a couple of years ago. And going through that process myself realized. Just how much of the process is not actually legal and how much of the legal process is informed by The [00:01:00] type of work that you do on yourself on your conflict resolution skills on processing the grief and all of the feelings that come up and how different the legal process can be once you've done that kind of work and surrounded yourself with a a team of.
professionals who can help you keep your divorce on track. So yeah. You're right. It takes more than just the use your attorney to get through it or just yourself and paperwork. It's so, so much more than that. Yes. So much more. Can you walk us through, and one of the things that I really love about the way you work is working on helping people have more of a peaceful divorce, a collaborative type divorce.
There's a ton of different ways to do that. But I really would like to know from you is it really possible for most of us to have a peaceful divorce? And like, you know, how do we make that happen? Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, you've got to define what peace is for you, and it might be that you find your peace in the midst of a lot of chaos, and [00:02:00] so the, as sort of corny and cliche as it is, I think the number one thing you can do for yourself isn't necessarily some legal strategy or, you know, some financial advice, it's really learning for you to let go of You know, what you can let go of, which is, and what you should let go of, which is what you can't control.
And there's going to be a lot in the divorce process that you cannot control. And as soon as you recognize what those things are and do the work to let it go and to focus on what you do have control over, which, spoiler alert, is really yourself and your behavior and your actions the more the chances that you can have an amicable divorce.
And, you know, like I, like I started. The answer you can have peace within your divorce. even if the other person isn't desiring it, even if it doesn't look maybe peaceful from the outside, the, the real work and the real trick is to figure out how to find that peace within yourself regardless of what it's looking like on the [00:03:00] outside.
I've got a lot more practical skills, but none of them really work and none of them really help unless you've done that initial Not, not just one time exercise, but a constant re evaluating what is in your control and what's not. That's really the key to the whole thing. Unfortunately, because it's not easy.
It's not as easy as it sounds. But it is, it is the, the, really the touchstone of, of a peaceful divorce. Yeah, so we can't just let go one time and be free of it. No, there's going to be so many triggers. And, you know, that's the other thing that I think a lot of people don't realize until they've experienced it.
And maybe you have as well, is that it kind of feels like a divorce is an event, but it turns out it's really, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And even if you resolve all of the financial issues, you might have kids and co parenting and child support, or you might just. You have sped through the divorce, but you have a lot of unprocessed grief or, you know, there are a lot of things you need to learn to unpack or move past or grow from.
So it's [00:04:00] really an ongoing process and you know, I, I hope that it gets easier and easier over time. That's typically what happens, but it really is a continual process of letting go. grieving. Sorry to everyone who wants to speak. It doesn't usually work that way. Yeah. Okay. I feel like a lot of us are bringing these, like, I feel like it's like, sorry, it's not an easy fix, but also it's so good to hear that it's not an easy fix because you feel so terrible in it, right?
Like it's so hard in so many different ways. And yes, I think one of the parts that I think Is just as important as letting go and controlling what you can control and letting go of the rest is also having a lot of grace for yourself. And there's a real unfortunate thing. I think a lot of us do, which is comparing our divorce to other people or to what you thought it should look like, or what you thought your life would be like before you were getting a divorce.
And the more you can just let go of those expectations and have grace for yourself. [00:05:00] I don't know anybody who went through a divorce, you know, pain free. It's part of the process, and the growing from it is a good thing, and so the more you can open yourself up to the, the feelings that are coming up, the, the smoother the process will be, and the more you'll actually get from the process itself.
So, another sort of cheesy, corny, but very true reality about it. Yes. No, I love that. I love that advice. And I really love the idea of stretching out like what a divorce is. It's not just the paperwork. It's this entire process that you have to go through as a human. You know, it's an opportunity to grow.
It's an opportunity to be a better person, whether or not you have kids or not. It's a transition that you should, that you have an opportunity to use to your advantage to grow in the future. And that's awesome. Absolutely. I agree. So if you want to try to reach a more amicable divorce with your ex and you're both, whether or not you're both entering it or not, you know, how do you, you know, one maybe want an amicable, the other may not how should you a, initiate the divorce in the right way?
[00:06:00] Like what's the first step? Yeah, that's a great question. So you know, I mentioned earlier, the team of support that you receive is really valuable. So before you go ahead and take any legal steps towards your divorce, getting yourself prepared with a support team is really critical and that might be, you know, paid support a therapist, a divorce coach, a lawyer.
It might mean the community around you, who you need to help support, you know, part of the divorce process is figuring out, you know, who is your support network and it might not be who you thought it would be. Sometimes you lose friends during the process, but really getting your troops in, in place, you know, that was a big part of it for me and what I've learned that and why my practice has shifted so much.
Towards that kind of support, not just the legal support, is getting that team in place so that you are making non reactive decisions and doing things in a way that isn't born out of fear or anger is a really important first step so that you're not just immediately rushing [00:07:00] to file something and setting the tone for your divorce.
In an sort of aggressive or, you know, more legal way. And so that can mean developing your team. And that can also mean developing a team that you work with, with your ex, if they're open to that. So I'm a mediator. I'm a huge fan of mediation. I think it's, If it's possible, it's absolutely worth trying.
And so that might mean, you know, gathering your team of a mediator, of other experts you might need in your case. If it's a co parenting counselor or a mortgage lending expert or whoever you might need, is getting the whole team developed or maybe, you know, at least the beginnings of a team, so you can start off with people who support an amicable divorce process.
One of the biggest mistakes I see is people just, you know. Asking a friend, which lawyer should I use? And you don't know that person may have had a terrible litigated, drawn out divorce that maybe the attorney was wonderful at litigation, but if you're looking for a different kind of [00:08:00] divorce, that might not be the right attorney for you.
So getting that team in place will really set the tone for the divorce. And there's, there's also, you know, a lot of. Ways you can do it, the actual divorce, if you are going through a lawyer, you don't have to, you know, surprise somebody with a filing for a petition, unless, you know, there's some legal reason your attorney thinks that that's safer, but you can do things in a transparent way, you can do things in a way that's collaborative, right from the start.
And I find that setting the tone that way makes it so you don't have to undo a lot of damage that maybe a well meaning attorney has sort of started you off with. So that would be my first piece of advice. Get your troops together. Get your team together. Get people you trust to help you stay focused on your, your full long term goals unless you're reactive sort of short term feelings.
That, that's really critical. When you just talked about, like, not just asking a friend because your divorce might need to be different, how do you [00:09:00] pick somebody that's right for you? How do you know who to go to? Well, so I'll, I'll answer that in two parts because there's the professional support piece and I, I'm a divorce coach.
That's probably my favorite part. I like mediation a lot too, but of my job. And divorce coaches are they're not therapists who tend to look more, you know, towards the past and processing past harms and things that, you know, led you to where you are now. But divorce coaches can help you navigate the actual logistical parts of the divorce.
And really a good divorce coach keeps you focused on what your long term goals are and what your vision is. So someone like that that can start you off with the right tone because they're not giving you advice. They're helping you develop from inside, you know, what you actually want. So that it's coming from your own desires and your own vision for the future.
Friends can be absolutely wonderful, but they tend to project a lot onto you their own experiences, which is, [00:10:00] you know, it can be really important information to hear about other people's experiences, but a coach or, you know, if a therapist is skilled in that way, too, can help you and said. Come up with your own vision.
It might not be the same as, as anyone else's but with friends, you know, you can look at people's divorces and, and try to see, okay, I saw that person navigate it with a lot of grace. And that's something I'm wondering how they were able to do that. I would try really hard not to compare too much.
There are so many factors that go into what someone's divorce looks like. And like I said from the start, a lot of those are not really within your control. And so it, it's great to hear other people's experiences, especially to feel like you're not in this alone and that other people have gone through it.
But I would just be really careful not to compare too much or try to draw from other people's experiences in a direct way towards what you should do with your divorce. Gotta be a little bit careful about that and discerning, unfortunately. No, that makes sense. It sounds like what you're saying is that the goal is maybe to have a divorce that's good for you?
And then [00:11:00] it's hard to, and that might not be the same as everybody else, right? Yeah, exactly. So you know, I was just thinking recently about some advice I would give to people kind of what not to do with your divorce attorney, as a divorce attorney for so long. I see people make and you know, one of them is that your divorce attorney is not your therapist or your divorce coach.
And part of that is that they're usually a lot more expensive, frankly. So you can spend a lot of money processing with the divorce attorney who also. Besides being more expensive isn't actually trained in doing that kind of work. So be careful with that. And that's why I say get a support team together because your attorney might not be the person that you do goal setting with, for example.
But the, the next mistake I see, and this is to me such a critical one is that people go into their attorney's offices and they, they let their attorney dictate what they. Want, you know, they say, okay, well, you know you The house was technically purchased by [00:12:00] you before marriage. And so let's fight for you to keep it and pay as little as possible Well, that might not be your actual goal Maybe you really don't care that much about the house and you care more about something else And now you're going down this path of, you know, leading yourself towards a goal you haven't really evaluated whether is your goal or just what the law would do or what a judge would do if he went to court.
Or, you know, I see this a lot with custody schedules. It's like, okay, well, I, I was told that the, the courts 50 and so I want 50 50. Well, you haven't, what does 50 50 even mean? What's the schedule? What's best for the kids? What does it work with your work schedule? You need to take a step back and start thinking about what actually works for you and your family.
And a lot of the time the lawyer is going to just take what the law does or your first thought and run with it. And if you do the work and back up and actually think about what you want, what you want your future life to look like, what works for you what your short and long term. [00:13:00] You know, financial needs are all of those things.
Your attorney, you'll be much more efficient with your attorney and you'll actually be able to reach. Hopefully something that is more in line with what you actually want. And rather than just what a court would do. And the last mistake I see with attorneys is just picking the wrong attorney. If you want an amicable divorce, you probably shouldn't pick the top litigator in your jurisdiction, for example, they might be fine, but they're not going to be as.
Skilled at keeping you out of court because they go to court every day, perhaps. Or the opposite. You have a a really high stakes case and you just know you have to litigate. You might wanna find somebody who's knows the judges in your jurisdiction as opposed to some, someone that, you know, somebody else really liked and help them navigate a, a negotiated divorce, for example.
So those are my top, the top three mistakes. I see time and time again, and I'm trying to help people avoid now. So what happens when you get into the divorce process and there's a way that you [00:14:00] want to get divorced and your ex wants to get divorced in a different way? Mm-Hmm, . How do you navigate like, I think my instinct as I was going through the process was to continue my people pleasing and I struggled with, like, giving out, you know, figuring out what I want wanted.
And it took me a long time to set some boundaries around, like, this is what I want, this is what you want. And even now we're like three years out and I'm still like, figuring out how to set those boundaries around parenting time and finances and stuff because that your relationship with them when you have kids, especially just never ends.
It's just always there. So what do you do in those situations for if you want a different way? What are some tips you have for the person in that situation? I love what you said about people pleasing, and I see this a lot. I work a lot with the late in life lesbian community, which I am a proud member of myself.
And I see that people pleasing tendency come up a lot, or what I'll see is people for the first time asserting their needs, and then it's, Kind of a, an [00:15:00] overcorrection or a swing in the other direction. It's like my way or the highway. I'm finally have the strength to say what I need and what I want.
And so I'm, you know, like, you know, like just learning and not able to also be flexible in this process. And so, you know, the first step is exactly what you just said, which is having some self awareness around where your tendencies lie. If you tend to be a people pleaser, then. Really having some accountability around you like, you know, either friends or your own accountability to recognize.
Oh, I can, I can feel right now that I'm deciding or I'm agreeing to something out of a place of people pleasing or am I deciding it out of a place of wanting and desiring peace and the outcome might be the same. But the way you're doing it is really important to your own authenticity and your own feeling of, you know, your buy in on the agreement.
Yeah. Some there are people I know plenty of people that in their divorce, they they end up giving up a lot more money than they would have in court for peace. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think it's wrong to do that. If you are doing it [00:16:00] out of a place of self awareness and informed consent, and you know what you're doing where I get nervous is when it's out of a place of emotion, it's fear or it's guilt or it's shame.
And so doing that internal work of figuring out what. Actually is motivating you is a really important piece of it. And then, then, you know, there's the piece that you can't control. You might come up with the most, you know, what you feel is fair and reasonable proposal and your ex is just like a hard pass and they want to go to court and there's nothing you can do to talk them out of it.
And that's the piece where you just have to keep coming back to what can you let go of and what can you can actually control. So maybe what you control is how you show up to court if you're regulated. You're open to, you know, settling in court. But if you, if you keep doing that work of letting go what you can't let go of, at least you'll have that internal sense of peace.
I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying it's going to happen all the time, but if you can return to that as much as possible, then you know you're coming from A place of, you know, making [00:17:00] regulated decisions. That's really all you can do, unfortunately. But it tends to be a little bit. Not always.
There are people who, you know, there's, you know, personality disorders and things where nothing you're going to do is actually going to change their behavior. So really, you're just protecting yourself with boundaries, but I also do see where if you're regulated and you show up regulated, It can be contagious.
The person on the other side can see, okay, she's actually being really reasonable here. I'm going to show up in a reasonable way too. I'm not saying you do that for that reason, but that, that tends to happen too. Sometimes it just takes one person sort of taking the first step towards towards, you know, peace and resolution to have the other person follow suit.
I'm not sure if I'm answering your question exactly. You're answering it wonderfully, and I guess I'm thinking about how how I might be regulated through this process, and how emotional it is, and how difficult that is, especially when you first get divorced, right? Totally. Totally. It's a, it's a really tall order.
And I think, you know, you talked, touched a little bit about co parenting and I'll tell you one [00:18:00] of the most sort of gut punches to me was in learning more and more about custody schedules and co parenting and. Really what it all boiled down to when I got to the center of it and everything I've read and all the experts that I've talked to in trainings and so on is the most valuable thing you can do is show up as a regulated parent.
That's it. You can't control the other person if they're going to, you know, do things during their parenting time. You can try to get court orders. You can try to get things in place. I'm not saying, you know, you have no control over that or the courts don't have power, but. The most important thing you can do is show up as a regulated parent, and you then model for your kids what it looks like to do that.
And boy, that is hard to do in the middle of a divorce. It is hard to do and so, you know, I'm not here to do the like BS, you just need self care and just take a bath every once in a while. It's not going to always look like that, you know, you don't, you might not have the time or you might have the time but not be resourced or [00:19:00] whatever the case may be.
You know, sometimes it, it looks like it shows up, like you get up, you have to get up 20 minutes earlier just so you can take a breath first before you start co parenting. Or maybe it looks like you don't respond to the email from your ex right away, or you have a policy that I don't respond unless it's an emergency when I'm with my kids.
I wait. Whatever the case may be, you figuring out what the tools that you need to be self regulated is the most important thing you can do beyond any, like, parenting book that you'll read about, you know, the right things to say to your kids about the divorce. That's important. But if you're not showing up regulated, none of that really matters because they're just seeing your reactivity.
And it's, that is hard. It's hard. I, I say that also co parents. It's challenging, but it really, it there was this quote that a custody specialist said that, would you rather have a child centered divorce or have your child have a divorce centered childhood? And that really has been my mantra [00:20:00] ever since I heard it.
You know, making everything about your, you know, regulating yourself for your children, regulating yourself so that you can create a healthy, safe space for them so that their entire, their entire childhood isn't centered around experiencing the divorce and experiencing you experiencing the divorce. It's really, really critical and really, really challenging.
So that's where you come back to the having grace for yourself piece. It often also, you know, changes over time, right? Like, Three years out, it's different. The kids have another thing that comes up about the divorce. And you know, there's different areas of grief they're going through because they're also getting big.
They're, they're grieving growing up anyways. And so, yeah, I think that's so such an important thing that you just touched on. I, I know a lot of people have so much anxiety and fear around, like, the divorce conversation with their kids, and I get that, I mean, I've been through it, I get it, and I have a million pointers and things I could tell you about, you know, what research has shown and how the conversations can, you [00:21:00] know, Be healthier for the kids and so on, but the part that I didn't really understand until I went through it myself is it's not a conversation.
It's so many conversations. They get older, their understanding gets, you know, deeper, they get sadder that it's more permanent as it sinks in, you know, all of these things change. You're going to have that conversation with your kids. So many times, and actually, the more conversations you have about it, to me, it signals that they feel safe having those conversations with you, and that's a good thing.
You know, it's, it's, if they're not expressing any emotions about it, I mean, maybe they're fine, but maybe they just don't feel like they can. You know, there's a lot of parentification that happens in divorce, and kids don't want to say anything because they're scared that they're going to hurt their parents.
You know, my daughter said to me not that long ago, like, I really still don't understand why being in two houses is better for me, you know? And like, oof, right? Yeah. Ouch. Like, you know, and I, but then I took a minute, I took a breath and I was like, how amazing that she feels [00:22:00] safe enough to ask me and to say that, you know, and for me to be able to, you know, try, try to not make it personal and try to take a, you know, like a moment to regulate myself and then to explain that we made a decision.
And, you know, we've, mom and dad thought really long and hard about what would be best for you and it's, it was a hard choice and it's not a perfect outcome. It doesn't mean you're not going to be hurt. So you're hurting and I totally understand that and that makes sense. Just validating what they're going through.
But also being the parent and saying, we did make a choice that we felt was best for you, but it doesn't mean that there's no pain. Yeah. And, but, I mean, we've been divorced for like three years and that, we're still having that conversation. Yeah, it doesn't end with the kiddos. It doesn't. Yeah. And I think it's, I like what you just said about making sure you set the boundary and acknowledge the emotion that they're having so that they feel safe and secure.
And that comes up a lot. You know, it's important for the kiddos to feel like they're safe. You have, [00:23:00] you know, you are in control, you're regulated, you're able to make decisions that are best for them and you're not second guessing it because if you're second guessing it in front of them, whether you are or not, I'm trying to figure that out, they don't feel secure.
Exactly. It's not going to head in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard, but it's your, your role, you're being a role model to them that it's okay to have feelings about things and to make hard decisions. And that sometimes. The right decision is hard. It's a hard path, even if it's the right decision.
I mean, we know that the, having gone through a divorce, you know, making that decision was not, we knew that it wasn't the pain free option. There is no pain free option, you know. Yeah, you're going to be in pain in the marriage or outside of it. Yes, you're right. There's no pain free option. Dang it. I mean, I wish there was.
Because let me tell you, if I figured it out, I, it would be a whole different world. I mean, I [00:24:00] would, yes, I would, well, I'd be out of a job probably, but no, there is no pain. I mean, that's, that's just being alive, you know, unfortunately you take the good from the bad, but yeah, I think. You know, just validating them, but also validating yourself.
You know, it's hard for you too. This is hard. It's the way. It is. And reduce your shame around the fact that you're choosing divorce and all, you know, there's so much, we talk about that all the time on here on the podcast and in the group that, that there's so much shame that comes with getting divorced in our society.
And you know, that is just unnecessary stuff that we have that we're carrying through this time of grief too. It's like so frustrating. Yeah. It's just, it's such an incredible opportunity though. If I'm gonna be put a positive spin on it because we get to now. Change some of the way we think about ourselves and see this now when you see the, the shame come up, you can start to change the way that your [00:25:00] voice, the voice within your head is, you know, it takes a lot of work, but you know, I made a hard choice.
I'm doing this because I deserve to be happy, like you can start to change that inner dialogue if you, if you can notice when you're doing it, if you can notice when the shame comes up and instead of letting the shame, you know, railroad you towards a certain way of doing things instead. Okay, that's. That shame is, that's coming from somewhere else.
I, you know, that's the expectations from society. That's some patriarchy, you know? That's somebody, that's You know, there's, there's this unfortunate dynamic in queer divorces in particular where there's like, we fought so hard to have the right to get married, like I can't believe we're getting divorced.
Or that this is like, you know, validating some homophobic person's feeling around, you know, gay marriage or all these different things, but those are other, that's, that's been put on us. Like if we can do the work of differentiating [00:26:00] between somebody else's voice and our own, divorce can actually be a really good opportunity to set yourself up on a path that's more in line and more authentic with like your actual true self.
Yeah. It's corny, but I've seen it happen. It is not corny. That's true. It's so true. Yeah. I think one of the best advice I got recently from a self compassion course I was in is that shame is a secondary emotion. And I never really thought about it that way. I thought it was this core thing I was doing to myself.
Right. But you just described it in that way too. It's like shame is the overriding thing that's occurring to you, but it's not because of shame, right? It's not a core emotion. It's because of something else underlying it. And this is the opportunity to look at what that means and how to change that for yourself and how to heal.
Exactly. Yeah. And it's so interesting how just thinking in this time about how much healing occurs after. after grief. And I think that people don't think about divorce in the same way. Like, maybe you lose your spouse [00:27:00] through death, or you have these other things that might, you might be grieving from.
And when we have those scenarios, we have all of these different stories in our society about like, their husband died. And now they're, you know, they made this great. Thing out of it, or they created this fundraiser and like people can rise out of that and everybody feels good about that. But we don't always have that same story around divorce.
Totally. I know I we're, I think we are seeing a shift in a way. I think a lot of the work people are doing unpacking shame as a part of it, but I am starting to see, you know, like divorce parties or like, you know, a shift towards. And you know, I, I hope that's going to continue and that it's still, we're just starting to see people feel more like it's this, you know, transformative period as opposed to this shameful, you know, this experience that you, you don't want to talk about or that you're not proud of coming out of the other end of I, I am starting to see a shift and I hope [00:28:00] that, that, that continues because, you know, There, it, it is absolutely a grieving period and there is a death.
It might not be a literal death, but there is a death, but you can also come out so much stronger on the other end. I mean, I really see it happen all the time. It doesn't feel like it in the middle of it. I'll tell you that much, but I don't, I think that's true of all grieving. So it's not unique in that way.
That's true. I wish for more and more of us to be able to wear those Proud Member of the Queer Divorce Club stickers and stuff because it's true. It's like, you've done all this work to get through this space, to heal, to grow, making choices for yourself, whether you chose the divorce or not, choosing yourself through it is such a huge accomplishment and we all need to be proud of that.
Absolutely. I agree. Just restarting your life anytime you do it, a new career, coming out, whatever it is, you know, it's, it's so brave. Whether it's your choice or not, it's, it's very brave to show up for yourself in those times. And so, yeah, I agree. Like we should have shirts that say like [00:29:00] proud divorcee or something.
No, it's, it is. It's something we should be proud of. I think definitely, definitely. Let's talk a little bit back about amicable, amicable divorces and how we can get there with our, with our partners. So what are, do you see are some of the key features of, of an amicable divorce process? Yeah, I, I think deciding and co creating the process is really important.
So how you do it logistically, you know, are we going to go with a mediator? Are we going to negotiate through lawyers? Are we going to, you know, how are we going to create the actual container that we're, where we deal with the divorce is really the first step. So, you know, what I, like I mentioned before, that's very different than.
Going out, filing, not telling the other person, starting it off like it's, you know, one person's process or journey. If you can agree on just the process of it, and the agenda, and how you deal with it, not necessarily getting into the substance of it, but that's [00:30:00] going to really set you up with trust and and ownership.
That you're doing this together and that you have a shared vision for it, not a shared outcome per se, you know, you don't know what it's going to look like at the end, but if you can agree on that and having buy in for the process itself, that can be really huge. And, you know, sometimes it's just having like a list of round rules and, and vision for your divorce.
So, you know, if it's like, we, we agree that we're going to always put the kids first. We don't know what that looks like, right? But if you really trust each other that that's what you're trying to do, that's going to go a long way. Or we agree that neither of us are going to do anything behind each other's back, like move money or, you know, whatever the case might be.
Sometimes having agreements around dating if, if you have kids or having agreements around, you know, what, whatever you, you can do to minimize the feeling like. One person is off and the other person just has to react to it all the time that that setting the stage for that builds a lot of trust in a foundation for a lot of relationships that don't have that anymore.
That [00:31:00] trust has been, you know, whittled away over the course of the relationship. So reestablishing that foundation is such an important initial step. It's it happens. I know for a lot of people might be rolling their eyes, but with a really skilled mediator and with two people who are regulated. I'm not saying it's easy, but I've seen it happen.
It's really, it's very possible. And you, you might veer off and you come back because you'll have that foundation. You know, one person might be not doing what they said they were going to do, but you've established those ground rules and that vision. And you can always come back to that. It, it, it can work.
It really can. So that's, that's my hope for everyone is to just start, try starting with that. And, and that requires a lot of flexibility and patience sometimes. to get the other person to come around to it. They might not right away. Yeah. It's not easy. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, as you're moving through it, how do you, what's the best way to communicate in that?
So somebody is veering off course or you're trying to pull together, like what are some of the tools, communication tools you can use as a, as [00:32:00] a couple, a divorcee couple? I don't know. What do you call yourself at that? A partnership in this divorce? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I'm a big proponent of say what you mean, but don't say it mean.
And there, there's all kinds of acronyms and different communication skills that I like to offer clients. But, you know, what it really boils down to is, like, clear, concise, to the point, but not mean. And you know how to hurt your ex. We all know how to hurt our exes. We've done it, you know, we know what it looks like.
So be honest with yourself. Am I doing that thing to, to just like jab at them? Am I saying it in that way that I know is passive aggressive? And you know, there, I mean, like I said, there's a million acronyms, acronyms, you know, sometimes you have to start with you know, one that it can be successful are your statements.
So you start with like the ease for empathy. So maybe that person did something and it's like, You know, they, they were rude to you on the text. Okay, I can hear how upset you are. You lead with some empathy respecting them. Like, okay, I respect that that thing crossed your [00:33:00] boundaries or whatever. Then I'm doing it out of order.
E A R. And then attention, just like, Okay, why don't you tell me what's going on? Give them some room to talk about it. There, there are all these different tools you can have to, to get out of the reactivity and the back and forth. And I, I think there, there's also just the self awareness that like, you know what it looks like to fight with your partner and you, you know what it's like.
to take yourself out for a minute and just pause. Maybe that's, whatever, whatever was successful in your marriage, I'm not saying you had the best, you did the best job, you're getting divorced, but you know, you can pull from those, those things. You're probably going to have conflict in the same way you did during your divorce.
Unfortunately, but if you know that it triggers somebody when you don't react to a time sensitive thing, you know, try, try your best to do that. If it's, if it's really triggering whenever you bring up the past, you don't need to bring up the past. They're just asking a question about the future. You know, you can, you can figure out ways that you, that you say what you mean and answer the [00:34:00] question.
And, and not say it in a mean, reactive, you know, triggering way. Right. Right. You have to be regulated to do that. Yes. Yes. And then I was just thinking you also have to remember that this relationship is now different than a marriage, right? You're, you're having to participate in this differently. And so that means you also have to change how you're communicating in it, right?
So you might understand how your ex functions in different ways, but you now need them for a different purpose. You know, you now need to reach a different purpose together. So you have to do it differently. You, a new purpose and you get to leave behind the old person purpose, you know, you don't need that person like you, you want to feel connection with them a lot of the time and there's, that's real, but you, you're not trying to be in a romantic relationship with them necessarily anymore.
And so that, that like need that constant need, like you're not meeting my needs. You're not meeting my needs. Okay. It's a different relationship now. They don't have to validate everything you say. They don't have to necessarily meet you in the way that you wanted them to meet you in the marriage. You just need an answer.
Are we picking up the kids together or am I [00:35:00] picking them up on my own? You know, like it, it can be, it's very different. You can learn from it, but you're absolutely right. It's not the same relationship. And remembering that is, can be really hard if you're falling back into the same patterns you were in during your marriage.
It's a really good reminder. Yeah, you don't want those old patterns. You're getting out for a reason, whether you're choosing it or not. It's happening. Yeah, leave them behind. Yeah. Yeah. It's so easy. So yeah, lots of sticky notes on my mirror that helps me get through these things. Yeah. Oh my God, I am such a sticky note on the mirror person.
Yes. See it every day. Otherwise, you will forget. Seriously. Totally. Totally. That's so funny. I'm a big sticky note person. Super important. Super bright pink, orange, blue. As bright as you can get. Yes. Yes. Totally. I love that. So if somebody is going through this process, what are some, like, originally I wanted to ask you, like, what are common agreements?
But now that we're talking, I think we need to realize that everybody's different, right? There's everything you need. So what are [00:36:00] some common questions you think that individuals should ask themselves or be ready to answer during the process? Yeah, that's really good. I think When sort of there's like a reality testing that needs to happen as you're negotiating or going through your divorce, like, okay, even if I got what I'm asking for, what would that look like?
You know, why do I want it? Asking yourself the kinds of questions to get to the core of, you know, there's this dynamic mediation. It's there's your position and then there's your actual interest, right? The position. I want the house. The interest is I want a safe space for the kids. I want them to feel like, you know, they're in their same community, whatever it is.
If you can whittle whatever your initial, like, this is what I want. Start answering, asking like really good, like really honest questions about yourself. Why do I want this? What would it actually look like if I got it? How important is it to me? Why is it that [00:37:00] important? And it doesn't mean that it's going to change the position you have, but it's going to allow you to actually understand how much you want to fight for it.
You know, what are you willing to give up if you want to get that thing? So there's that when it comes to the sort of negotiation piece, particularly around like finances and then anything with custody, you know, you've got to ask yourself, how, how does this serve the kids? You know, what is really, what does this do for the kids?
Is this me wanting it? Is this my ego? Or is this actually best for the kids? And that's a hard question. And sometimes it's hard to know, you know, because you're going through a period where everything is upended, you know, none of this feels good for the kids. What do you mean? Is this good for the kids?
You know, this all feels terrible. But it's like. You know, if you're going into it saying, I, I want them on, you know, 50 percent of the time, but you work 80 hours a week, is it really better for your kids to be sitting in your house while you're working online and they're on the TV or whatever, when the other parent is available and wants to do fun things with them?[00:38:00]
Like, is it really better for them? If, you know, is it better for your kids to have some flexibility in the schedule, or does that lead to more conflict and you actually need a more boundaried relationship with your ex? Like, are the boundaries for you or are they so that there's, you know, less tension and it's for the kids?
Can you do work so that you, you can have some more flexibility and still be regulated? So really just continuing to ask questions about what is actually best for the kids and how much you can let go of for your own, you know, about your own needs. You know, if you're able to stay regulated and, you know, be, be able to, you know, meet your kids where they are, then, you know, try to focus as much as possible on the kids.
Because that's his, that's usually the other person's goal, right? So if, if you are both aligned on that, there's way better chance that you're going to be able to be amicable if you both continue to focus on the kids. Not always, but it ups the chances by a lot. Yeah, yeah. And I love how you're saying like, just continually asking your question to [00:39:00] get deep, to under, understand why.
Why do I need this? Why do I really want it? What's it really going to matter? Because you're right. There's this ability to make these emotional decisions as you're going through it. Like, I can't have my, you know, I'm going to miss my kids 50 percent of the time. If I give up more time, or if I take more time in the summer, or whatever, I try to balance it, then.
Then I'm going to look like the parent I feel like I've seen where giving up that time means you're putting shame on yourself does not mean a good parent, but really being a good parent means you're focusing on what the kids actually need, and it's so hard. It's so hard. Totally. So hard. I know. I know.
Yeah, we have a tendency in this country, and especially, I, I'm a California attorney, so my attorney work, you know, my legal work is on California, that everything is very, feels very like, 30, and it's, it really takes you out of the, the, like, it's like, who's ever in charge, you know, it's not necessarily, you don't need to think about it, like, in terms of this exact science, and therefore, I am a not primary parent if I'm [00:40:00] 45 percent of the time, it's like, No, you're both whole parents, like, I, I, you know, there's this feeling like when you're a single parent and your kids at the other parent's house, like you're no longer a parent, you're a hundred percent parents.
Everyone is a hundred percent a parent, period. And then what you figure out from there is that what's the best arrangement at this point for the kids, knowing that it's a totally changing, moving, evolving thing. Keeping it if you can think of it that way, which I again a plug for mediation because it's it's usually easier to do there than the battling between attorneys piece that you can remember that it doesn't make you less of a parent if you have less time.
Yeah, you just. I have a different schedule, you bring a different quality to the parenting. You know, you might, it's, it's quality over quantity for you. Like whatever it is, it doesn't make you any less of a parent at all. In fact, I think it shows that you're a really great parent, that you're willing to figure out what's best for your kid and not just yourself.
Yeah. Yes. So good. So good. So hard. [00:41:00] Yes. So good. So hard. Yes. As I was just thinking through that, I was wondering is it too late? Is it ever too late to go through mediation? So, say you have an agreement already, like, can you do it later? Can you change your agreement? Like, is it ever too late? Short answer, no.
It's not too late. I mean, especially when you have kids and there are ongoing issues. So, the legal answer is Parts of your divorce may or may not be modifiable or open ended, so if you don't have kids and everything in there was done, you know, signed, sealed, delivered, there might be not much you can do in mediation if the other party in particular is, like, good with the agreement.
But if there are ongoing issues, I mean, there are mediators who, I was just in a training with somebody who said, you know, they've got people who are coming back 20 years later if there's something that needed to be resolved still. But. Definitely, if there are custody in California you know, child support's always modifiable.
So, for better or worse, anyone can ask to change it if there's some change in the circumstances. You can certainly go to mediation for [00:42:00] that. If, you know, there's an issue that you need to deal with, one of the kids has medical needs, and you're having a hard time deciding what the best treatment is for them, you know, you can either go to co parenting, counseling, or mediation for that.
Or, you know, God forbid, somebody wants to move, you know, that's a big one. Somebody wants to leave the city or the state that you live in. You can go to mediation to discuss that. Mediation absolutely does not end the day that the settlement agreement is done. There's a ton that could still be You know, good for mediation.
In fact, a lot of mediation mediated settlement agreements will include provisions that require mediation should something arise. I think that's really a really helpful provision to have so that nobody jumps straight into filing something with the court. So, yes, the short answer is, you know, mediation is always available if the two parties are open to it.
And the more you do it, the, I think the better, but also mediation can be a process where you learn how to do this on your own, you know, so sometimes people, they gain the skills in mediation, they just come to me and they say, Oh, we didn't [00:43:00] actually need mediation. Can you just draft the agreement? We figured it out on our own, which I'm always like, Yay.
You've graduated to the next step. Exactly. But sometimes you just need like a little hand holding or a little bit refresher on the law or something like that. So no, no shame if you, if you need a mediator at all, but Some people, you know, over time can figure out how to do it themselves. So either way, absolutely.
I love that question. Someone said, I'm your mediator for life. You know, you might need stuff here and there and that's totally normal. Yeah. Fabulous. Fabulous. It's so good. I'm just thinking about to mediation and how. If you don't, you know, you're saying people can graduate to that ability to do it themselves, but it's a good chance that if you just got divorced, even like three to five years out, and you're still trying to co parent, that you may have not built that relationship where you can talk through things together.
That's probably, you know, more likely than not. And so having a mediator to help you talk through it is just a good way to make sure, again, the kids are first, and that you're making healthy decisions that aren't emotional. So important. [00:44:00] It doesn't hurt. I'll put it that way. It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt.
Yeah. All right. So I have one final question for you. Sum it all up. Maybe not. You don't have to sum it all up. It can just be one thing. What do you think is the most important thing for our listeners to remember to keep in mind as they're going through a divorce or in the rebuilding process? Yeah, I'm just gonna full circle it up and, and say, you know, learn to try to figure out, learn and figure out what you can and can't change, you know, it's the serenity prayer.
If you've ever done or familiar with 12 step programs let go of what you can't control and, and really focus on what you can and have grace for yourself during that process. And the one other thing I'll say, because we've been talking a lot in terms of grief, which I think is really appropriate, is that grief is not linear, and I know I repeated that to myself, both when I've grieved the death of people, but also my own divorce.
You know, you could have five really great days and then six really bad ones and then be good for three months and then, you know, have a really rough month. It's all [00:45:00] normal. The trend line is you're growing and you're learning and you're, you are, you know, moving past it. But it's not, you can't look at it from day to day and expect to feel like every day is a little bit better.
It's not going to be linear. And that's normal. So don't, you know, it shouldn't, there can be a moment where you're like, Oh my God, do I regret this? I feel worse. That's normal. It, it will get better. It's don't pick one day as like the end all be all, you know, look at a big picture if you can. Yeah. Those growth lines that are just straight curves are just totally untrue.
I love that meme that shows the lines all over the place. Cause seriously. Exactly. So, so true. So thank you for reminding us of that. Major squiggles all over the place. Yes. Yeah. And you have to learn the same lesson 20 times. That's normal. Oh, dang it. I know. I know. I know. So frustrating. But so important.
We're human. We're human, you know? We make mistakes. My family motto, my, you know, for what it's worth is mistakes [00:46:00] happen. I just say it over and over again and I'm saying it to them and I'm saying it to me. Just mistakes happen. It's okay. Mistakes happen. We can do it. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for that amazing advice and for being here today.
Thank you. You guys, I'm, I really appreciate what you're doing because the name of the game in divorce is support. So I really truly thank you for, for creating this community. It's really important. Thank you for being here. And if you want to find Amy out online, go to Bloomlegalcoach. com. I have, we'll put her information on the website and out on social and Divorce Coach Amy on social media.
So I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thank you.