Episode 7: Kate Herald Browne, Family Structure and Navigating the Murky Middle

Written By Tera Wozniak Stortz

Discover a powerful journey of healing and growth in this episode of the Queer Divorce Club. Join Tera, as she sits down with the incredible Kate Herald Browne, who candidly shares her personal story of divorce, remarriage, and co-parenting.

In this heartfelt conversation, Kate and Tera delve into the intricacies of queer divorce, exploring its unique dynamics and shedding light on the differences between queer and heteronormative divorces. Together, they uncover the transformative power of repairing relationships with ex-partners and offer invaluable insights into navigating the challenging "murky middle" of divorce.

Get ready to be inspired as we piece together the puzzle of divorce and self-healing, leaving you with a sense of awe and newfound understanding.

Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.

Picture of Kate standing with her arm on the way. She has short blond hair, green glasses, and a teal shirt with a dark denim button up over it.

Kate Herald Browne

​​Kate Herald Browne teaches people how to tell stories that change the world for good. She holds a PhD in English and uses her background in storytelling research as a learning designer, gender studies professor, and curator for TEDxNormal. Her writing has appeared in Runner's World, Refinery29, Autostraddle, and SELF magazine. Recently, Kate added a new dimension to her story exploration practice as a singer/songwriter, performing as a solo artist and as the leader of the Evening Orchid Band, a pop-up music jamboree.

You can find Kate online Instagram @kateonthemic and Substack: Katie Girl.

Show Transcript

00:00:09:23 - 00:00:31:09

Hi, Kate. Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club podcast. I'm so happy to have you today. Tera. I'm thrilled to be here. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever be on a queer divorce podcast. I think all of us didn't think that, but I'm so glad it's here and we get to share the experiences about this thing that this thing that we thought we'd never go through.

00:00:31:14 - 00:00:53:11

So I appreciate you being here to talk with me about it today. Can you give us a little bit of to start us off a background of your own experience with divorce and where you're at today? Yeah, absolutely. So the frame for my story is that my parents were married for 41 years and I grew up Catholic, so it resonates with many of your listeners.

00:00:53:11 - 00:01:18:13

It is true. It's also divorce is the ultimate failure. It's a failure of you as a person, of a family of of society, that that it's just failure on every level. And, you know, when I was early in the book, when when divorce started to become a viable option, I thought, oh, I have no experience with divorce, I have no frame of reference for this.

00:01:18:15 - 00:01:42:02

And then I really sat down and thought about it. My grandmother got divorced. I had a friends whose parents were divorced, but we didn't talk about it at all so that when I was growing up, it wasn't even I didn't even think about it. Right. But it's always kind of been a part of of my life experience. But it is that sort of, oh, it's never happened to me.

00:01:42:04 - 00:02:06:12

And it's part that, well, I'm definitely going to be successful no matter what. But also who wants to admit to being a failure? I'm going Becker High water. This is never going to be a part of my story. So, you know, that's kind of where I started out with thinking about divorce and just my own. Is this even possible for me?

00:02:06:14 - 00:02:33:18

Frame And you know, where I am today is I don't know that the the pain of that life change ever really goes away, but there's such a piece around it of I know I made the right choice and I think of divorce just like any other life transition. It has a neutrality. There's no good or bad. It's just it's a direction and a choice, just like anything else we do in our lives.

00:02:33:21 - 00:03:06:08

Mm hmm. That's a good reframe that I've been having to think about a lot, too, because I also grew up Catholic. My mom got divorced, though, when I was younger, and I saw her go through the process of the shame she had to experience from the church, the divorce process she had to go through with the church. This is an a podcast about being Catholic and getting divorced, but that is a huge it is a huge cultural aspect when we're younger, especially growing up in the eighties and nineties when divorce started to become more prevalent that you can get divorce, but it's shameful.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:26:23

And I feel like all of my friends I knew that were had divorced parents. It was like we were sort of in this kind of shame club that we didn't talk about. But then we were all friends because our parents were divorced. You know, it was interesting to think about. So glad that we're reframing and divorce is a choice that we all get to make based on our lifestyle.

00:03:26:23 - 00:03:57:19

And the dedication of marriage is something that we also get to make that choice of. So anyway, so I'm glad that you started with that. So how long have you been divorced now that we're talking? Well, I'm a pretty complex remarriage divorce story. I got divorced like official. I actually got divorced by email. I didn't know they could do that these days, but it was it was funny because I was doing a leadership retreat thing and we happened to be in one of Abe Lincoln's old courtrooms.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:32:18

I am from Illinois. And so we were visiting the courtroom and I got the email that said I was divorced. So I thought that was funny, that no matter what, I couldn't get out of going to court. But I the paperwork was signed in October of 2021, and I got remarried in November of 2021, which I think is a testament to something that folks coming from a more straight centered worldview going into a worldview have to adjust to is that timelines and the linear time almost doesn't stick.

00:04:32:19 - 00:05:01:04

It's yeah, it was a month between when I got divorced and when I got remarried. But this is a story that has been unfolding for years. So. So and I what is today? Today is we're in June. Yes, yes. Yeah. So I've been divorced for a little bit. I probably a noob. I don't know if there's a like how long you've been divorced hierarchy but I feel it still feels pretty new for me.

00:05:01:06 - 00:05:24:05

Yeah, maybe we're coming up with a new word for it. I don't know. New gets thrown on everything. I'm a noob too and legally two words just for a year. But like, like you said, the divorce process, especially in a queer divorce, we're thinking about the timeline, the process coming out. For some people it's it might not be that linear space and when you're legally divorced is different than when you got separated.

00:05:24:07 - 00:05:47:19

Like, I think about my separation time was I had told my ex-husband that I wanted to get a divorce in May. We weren't legally, legally divorced until the next year. In June. That's a whole I feel like I was separated from him way before we were actually legally divorced as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think we do. We pause on this this timeline thing.

00:05:47:19 - 00:06:18:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I I'm a storyteller, and the thing that I of in my story research for years has been before and after stories and how personal transformations get sort of distilled down to a moment. And that moment in a divorce story is when the divorce is final. And when we tend to tell that story, it's like, Well, I've only been indoors for a year or, well, you know, we're not quite divorced yet.

00:06:18:24 - 00:06:40:24

I know someone who has been with their queer partner for almost 15 years and they're still not divorced from their schooling. And that's just that's just how they live their lives, Right? Final. Yeah. And property and all that stuff, right. So if we are taking even a coming out story where it's like, well, the moment you came out, that's that's the beginning of your new life.

00:06:40:24 - 00:07:03:19

That's how we think. But if we take a step back and expand that story for even longer, like a divorce story can almost happen before a separation. I mean, there's that contemplate phase and there's that self-discovery phase. And if it's not included as part of the full picture, then we're really just getting to the well, when did you get divorced?

00:07:03:22 - 00:07:34:22

And and that discounts a lot of really rich, meaningful experiences that I think you're you're doing right by in this podcast. But giving people a place to talk about those in-betweens and messy middles and things before before and after you know decisions are made. Yeah. The actual divorce decree date is one date. That's part of an entire journey that we're all taking through life and separation and all of those things I was reading.

00:07:34:22 - 00:07:56:19

And I'm glad that you brought it up in your essay in Auto Straddle about your journey and with co-parenting and deciding a divorce. So part of that for you was starting to figure out what what family meant and is is an actual divorce, a physical divorce, meaning you're destroying your family, separating it. You know, will a family exist after after you make this decision?

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:17:19

So how did you come to the realization that divorce wasn't actually going to destroy? Can you see my air quotes? You can on the YouTube, but on the podcast, destroy your family and think about restructuring or reframing the idea of what family means to you. I love this question, and I'm glad that you pulled that out of the essay because this is the thing that I probably struggle with the most.

00:08:17:19 - 00:08:47:19

I mean, it took it took the entire time of of that pre contemplation phase, the decision making, the separation to really and even still, I have to remind myself that through this choice of of creating my chosen family there, the language of destruction is not a place I want to go when I was originally thinking about destruction and that's that's the the sort of mantra that was playing it over in my head is like, if you want this, if you want this, you are destroying your family.

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:13:01

If you make this choice, you're destroying your family. Everything I did was I thought, going in the direction of destruction. I remember the first call I made to a divorce attorney, the first time I saw a parenting plan packet. And both of those times I was just on the floor sobbing because this signified that I was taking action to destroy my family.

00:09:13:03 - 00:09:35:18

And again, when I took a step back and I looked at the bigger picture and I thought, well, what is what is family? And I've I've been queer my whole life. And actually that's actually how my husband and I met. We met at the birthday party of a woman that I was in love with. That's frankly, real honest love.

00:09:35:20 - 00:09:59:02

If you're listening. You knew that from day one. I was there and he knew who I was. And, you know, through the evolution of our relationship, it it just it seems to people that, oh, you got divorced because you came out or you got divorced because you're gay. And even even if that were true, that's fine. That's not my story, but that's what it seems on the outside.

00:09:59:02 - 00:10:20:06

And so I had to think about I know the concept of chosen family. I teach gender studies, right? I teach about chosen family. And for some reason I couldn't apply it to my own life. But when I really thought about, well, who are my chosen family? And I think about my my family of origin, they live about two and a half hours away from me.

00:10:20:08 - 00:10:43:24

I don't see them every day. We talk on the phone a lot, but not all the time. They're not involved in major, you know, life decisions. We don't share a bank account. You know, they're still my family. And so why couldn't I apply that same idea of family to a person with whom I did have all those legal obligations and was part of a marriage, and now I no longer have that same kind of connection.

00:10:43:24 - 00:11:11:15

It reminded me a lot of at some point. I grew up in my parents house and they bought my groceries and, you know, they they cared for me when I was a kid. The nature of our relationship has changed. It didn't destroy our parent child relationship. It's just taking on a new form and when I remove that shame of divorce as a failure, it became really clear that, oh no, this is just a re-imagination of family and there's a loss there for sure.

00:11:11:15 - 00:11:34:07

I still feel that loss, but reminding myself more and more, the more I did that, the stronger my conviction got in that this was the right thing to do and that ultimately everyone in my family would be better served by this decision. Yeah. Do you think that the that the grief is related to the changing of the relationship?

00:11:34:07 - 00:12:05:05

Obviously, restructuring the relationship can cause that grief, but also part of it partly to that shame, sort of still being feeling the shame and the restructuring at the same time. Yeah, sure, because I've got a ten year old and we're separated and and divorced when I was, you know, seven or eight. And again, not having that experience of my own or hearing the cultural stories about kids from a broken home and kids are permanently scarred by the force.

00:12:05:05 - 00:12:32:11

And all of those messages that I was really internalizing was like, how could I do this to him? How could I make his life worse? Yeah, that seemed to be the mark of a good mom to intentionally hurt. But it's still that, you know, the grief of what I thought my life was going to be. The story I thought I could tell about my life.

00:12:32:11 - 00:12:52:17

You know, I imagined that I would have a story like my parents where we were together for decades. And we got through the hard times and we didn't call it quits, which again, is part of the failure story, right? Successes stay legally married no matter what. And I'm sure we all know of relationships that would probably be better served by ending.

00:12:52:17 - 00:13:12:00

But they continue on because in part of the story that you have to see it through, you have to stick together. So so the grief is my life went in a totally different direction than I thought. I know that this decision caused harm to people, even if it's only temporary or if it's, you know, ultimately a good thing.

00:13:12:02 - 00:13:34:22

But still, the grief of of what I thought was going to happen still comes up every once in a while. MM Yeah. The grief is an absolute. That's I think if all of us have in common through a divorce is that there is grief in that change. And so that's important to remember. We each have our story of how we, what that grief entails, but all of us have that because it's a big change in our life.

00:13:34:22 - 00:14:13:18

It's a huge change in our life. If you were to explain to me right now who is in your family and what would you consider your family to be? What about you? Oh, you got to talk about who is it? Who is it? Yeah, you don't have to name them personally, but yeah, you know, I, I would my, my spouse is certainly a part of of my family and my, my kid, you know, and and we have different names for different ways we can figure that like so in when it's the three of us, our initials end up being K and D so we're the kind crew that's the three of us together.

00:14:13:18 - 00:14:36:03

And then with our kids, Dad is with us and his his people, you know, then we have a different configuration. And that I think has been really helpful to that. The nuclear family of this is the so and so's is really static. And it doesn't it doesn't account for all of those changes that might happen in a family.

00:14:36:05 - 00:14:57:05

So, you know, if folks are kind of struggling with that, that's one thing I would I would recommend is, you know, who's in your family now? Was in your family when you are at home, was in your family when you're at a reunion or a barbecue or, you know, a pride celebration or something like those family configurations can be different depending on where you're at and who you're with.

00:14:57:07 - 00:15:19:21

And I don't mean that to be a cop out. I mean, like you asked me a question, I you. But it can be it can be complicated to figure out. And I think there's a feeling with each of those families like and that's coming through work of boundaries, right. In order to love you. But our relationship or, you know, in order for us to maintain a relationship, this is what it has to look like.

00:15:19:21 - 00:15:47:15

So, for example, I don't go on vacation with my ex-husband. That's just not a thing we ever really did and nothing he's interested in doing now. So we just don't. And that's that's one of our boundaries. So a family vacation in is just the kind crew. It's the three of us. But if we are going to the movies, I'll invite him and his people to come to because that's that's part of a family situation.

00:15:47:15 - 00:16:14:17

So I think I think boundaries really define who family is and what you know, what your contracts are with them. Yeah, but yeah, in my house there are there are three humans and probably too many pets. And I just thinking as you're listening in, as you're talking about that, about how as I was growing up, I was taught this is our nuclear family.

00:16:14:17 - 00:16:42:09

We do everything together. And how freeing it is to actually think about the different types of relationships you have with different people in different spaces. So but we do that naturally over time, but we don't think about them as our family. So we have our friends, maybe our book club, we have people who we work with. These are different groups of people We have different boundaries set with in different spaces, and I think it's important for us to teach our kiddos how to to do that as well and how to affirm our relationships are healthy in each of those spaces.

00:16:42:09 - 00:17:07:23

So I really like how you are. You have how you talk about that, that you have your family structure is different in different spaces that you're in. But what's really important is the relationship with those people and how you set boundaries with those people. And each of those spaces you talk about a little bit about how you co-parent with your ex-husband and how that works for the two of you.

00:17:08:00 - 00:17:45:11

Yeah. So we we are very lucky. I know that not everyone has an amicable, friendly relationship with their ex, but I and I sometimes joke that we probably just should have stayed friends. Like we've always been really good friends, and that's something that's maintained in this new version of our relationship. But the the co-parenting piece, when I think about, again, the step back, the whole picture of our our story, I think every parenting couple, you know, whatever whatever you want to call that is in a co-parenting relationship.

00:17:45:11 - 00:18:12:18

I think that was an interesting revelation too, is like, well, just because we don't live in the same house doesn't mean we're suddenly co-parenting. We've always been doing the negotiation of, you know, who's who's going to watch the kid while the grocery shopping is done, or how do we make decisions together about our child or, you know, all of those things that that we call co-parenting or already happening in, you know, two or more adult families.

00:18:12:20 - 00:18:49:04

So now that we live in separate houses, the thing I noticed that is the the biggest change is that when we were together, I did I don't know if you or listeners have seen the mental load cartoon. I think it's by Emma. Emma Kat maybe. But it basically describes how in heteronormative relationships the woman ends up taking on the vast majority of remembering, you know, that the Furness filter needs to be replaced and where to buy the caps, who the kids who most typically the kids that is the pediatrician.

00:18:49:04 - 00:19:14:24

That is when they have like all of those things I would remember and I knew and I just made the appointments and went to get the things and paid the bills just because I knew those things. Well. Now, in co-parenting, we don't have that kind of relationship anymore. The communication has to be incredibly clear because I'm not taking on a lot of that behind the scenes, mental and emotional labor.

00:19:15:01 - 00:19:35:00

And that's that's definitely something I've been working on, and particularly as my spouse has come in as a co-parent to, is that my ex-husband and I have almost you know, we were in a relationship or a dating relationship for almost 20 years. We have a lot of shorthand where he can say, you know, I'm on my way. I know exactly what that means.

00:19:35:00 - 00:19:58:12

I know where he's at and how far he is, because he usually sends me this message when he's 5 minutes away. But my spouse doesn't know that. And so there were lots of questions like, what does that mean? Where are you? How do I fit into this? Yeah. So we're breaking that down to the, the basic component parts of who, what, where, when, why in communication has definitely been a change.

00:19:58:14 - 00:20:19:10

And I think, you know, the decision making, too, it's taken a lot for me to let go of. I know what's best for our kid and I know all of these things. So of course my decisions are always going to be the right one. There's a lot of letting go and letting him do it his own way. How do you how do you let go you what's worked for you?

00:20:19:12 - 00:20:46:01

My dress. It sounds like a lot of a lot of remembering, a lot of. I think it's also that it's remembering from my kids perspective, because he is going through something that I've never gone through before. He's got his own grief and his own ways that things have changed. And I can't control things that are not happening outside my sphere of family.

00:20:46:01 - 00:21:06:17

Right. And and so it's just as important for my kids who experience his dad doing things his own way as it is for him to see me growing, driving, you know, making my own choices, Like he deserves to see how that works with the both of us. Because for too long he only saw my way of doing things right.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:38:11

And and I remember to let go. And that he's got to see that that's an experience that he gets to have and maybe is part of the the the collateral damage image of the divorce. Right. Is that I can't control anything. And this is the way it's going to be. If they you know, I can't think of any specific example, but you know, the thing on the kind crew we do, a lot of nature walks and, you know, we're outside a lot.

00:21:38:17 - 00:22:07:09

That's not something my kid is going to do with his dad because he's not into that. It's not good or bad. That's just not an experience he's going to have with them. You're doing more like a game movie, comic book stuff, which is not necessarily going to happen. So it's it's again, that multiplicity of experience and it's really hard to let go sometimes because, you know, I've been doing this a long time and it's it's just a habit, you know?

00:22:07:09 - 00:22:26:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking about how it sounds like your houses and my houses are similar. Like my partner Carlene. I take the kids on hikes a lot and we're outside a lot and camping a lot. I don't even think they've been outside their dad's house since we got divorced. I mean, that's a hyperbole, obviously. But they.

00:22:26:12 - 00:22:50:05

It's completely separate. Households like bedtimes are different screen times, different, you know, we try to talk about those things. So we also had a release control. And for me, it's helped. It sounds like it's help for you to for your kiddo to think about how this is his whole life. You know, that you live half the time is that dads, you know, watching a lot of screen or movies, you know, going to comic bookstores in the other half of the time he's with me in nature.

00:22:50:05 - 00:23:07:06

And that's a holistic life. When I think about it, it gets an important to have all of those things when it comes down to it. Stuart, I have a question for you. It's I'm curious about your hiking. So when when you were together with your ex, was that an activity that you kind of tried to force on the whole family?

00:23:07:06 - 00:23:28:01

Like this is what we're doing now because I like to go hiking sometimes. Sometimes I wanted to be outside way more, but my ex was a very inside person. He would admit to that. I'm sure he's like, I'm an inside person. So I would bring the kids outside and push some of that. But now my new partner is an outside person and so we're she's pulled more of that out of me.

00:23:28:01 - 00:23:47:22

So I think my kids are seeing a different side of me as a parent, too. Like this is my whole self. So that's been something that's different for them. I think seeing me in a different way. I remember reading a babysitter, it wasn't the Baby-sitters Club, it was a Baby-sitters club spin off about a book like one of our babysitters cousins.

00:23:47:24 - 00:24:09:10

I'm hoping there's a listener out there. I know I read that too, but the the main character of this particular book had parents who were divorced and it was scandalous. It was this horrible thing. And I think her name I can't remember her name, but I remember very clearly this moment where she's talking about I think her brother's name is Jacob.

00:24:09:12 - 00:24:27:16

And they call somebody calls this kid Jacob Tutu, because he has to of everything because he has two households. And she talks in the in the narration of the book, this character is talking about how sometimes it's great to have two of everything because, you know, if you leave one somewhere, you've got the other one when you get back.

00:24:27:20 - 00:24:57:15

But also how horrible it is because you have to remember two different sets of things. And in the beginning of this process, I always went back to that book and remember how horrible she found it of like, Oh, she's split between two parents. And she but the the father I go into this journey the more I appreciate that piece where she does talk about, oh, I get two of these things I get I have my bedroom here and I have my bedroom there and I get to decorate it differently and it gets to be.

00:24:57:17 - 00:25:21:10

And so I think for my kid being ten, you know, having that different kind of experience is fun sometimes. And I think that is an experience that I wish I had when I was a kid, because everything I had was just one of every good that there is. There is fun and novelty in this this double household experience, too.

00:25:21:16 - 00:25:42:13

And I should say one of our co-parenting agreements early on was that we wouldn't refer to our houses as like Mom's house or dad's house. It would we would call the location by a street name. And so we've got to go pick it up from this lane or this street. And I think that's helped equalize it for my kid.

00:25:42:14 - 00:26:05:09

It's it's, you know, because we right now don't have 5050 custody. So I don't want it to seem like, oh, this one place is home. But this one other place isn't. No, they're both homes in different ways, just like when we visit our family, you know, in other places of the country, those are still homes. We just don't spend 365 there.

00:26:05:11 - 00:26:25:10

Right? Right. Do you think that helps with the idea of also maybe like Dad's house, dad's rules, mom's house, mom's rules, like, this is my house everywhere and I get to be a whole person in all those spaces. Yeah. Yeah, I think it does. And, you know, it also helps in the letting go of of like, Yeah, this, this.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:47:01

What do you do over there. You're her business. Yeah. But also that we can fall back on that with our kids and say I know that's how you do that at the house you know we're the houses sorry name but here we do it this way. And so avoiding that terminology of like, well, my house, my rules and it's like, no, in this space this is what we do.

00:26:47:01 - 00:27:06:08

Just like you have different rules at school, at the grocery store, you know, there are different ways to act and different rules when you're in those spaces. So this is just another space in your life where there are values and rules and ways of being a community that we've all agreed to by virtue of being in the space.

00:27:06:10 - 00:27:24:23

Yeah, and I could see how that could be freeing for the kiddo to think about themselves in that way, because they do that already, right? I'm at school in a church. For some people I'm at soccer practice or whatever. This is another space that I'm in, but I'm still a person. There's still these other, you know, basic rules and foundations for my life.

00:27:25:00 - 00:27:47:06

That's wonderful. I love that. Speaking about your house a little bit, you now have a spouse. Well, quickly, after your physical divorce, but through the process, you blended your family with adding this extra person. What? How is that going? And what have been some of the successes and hurdles you've seen for blending family and adding a bonus parent for your kiddo?

00:27:47:08 - 00:28:10:21

Yeah, I love the language of bonus parents because my kid has two moms and it was so funny last year for Mother's Day. I came home from school so mad and like, what's going on? What my teacher said I had to make two Mother's Day projects because I have two pups. He loves that. He loves the idea of having two moms.

00:28:10:21 - 00:28:37:16

And, you know, it's it's really my spouse is non-binary but but prefers the the identifier of mom in this in this case. So I think it feels like being together for a relatively short period of time. The challenges have been enormous because we're not only, you know, when we met, I was not divorced, it was during the pandemic.

00:28:37:18 - 00:28:57:13

So we were separated and had been for a while. But, you know, we were in separate bedrooms and my kids thought this was the greatest because he was always jealous that, you know, mom and dad get to sleep in the same bed. But I don't have a sleeping buddy that's not we thought this was very equitable, that we all got our own bedrooms and, you know, that was fine.

00:28:57:15 - 00:29:21:10

But because of the pandemic and everything, I happened to meet someone from Montreal and I mentioned earlier, I live in Illinois. So, you know, you can get out a map. That's a pretty significant difference. And so, you know, part of the reason that we got married as quickly as we did is because the borders were closed. There were some loopholes or ways that they hadn't really thought out the rules about the border crossing.

00:29:21:10 - 00:29:47:19

But at the time the border was closed and we thought if we have any chance of making this work like we have to get married and and start that process. So through the green card process and it was basically my spouse moved to the States and stayed. So that family transition that that was and they they did not have any kids to bring with the relationship.

00:29:47:21 - 00:30:13:04

So, you know, that was that was a bit less of a transition. But becoming a parent to an eight year old for the first time ever. And, you know, at the time, my my kids feelings were really charged with you, kicked dad out. You and what he said to me one day was you kicked dad out of his natural habitat, which both made me laugh and cry.

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:35:24

Interesting thing to say, but it was all very quick, you know, And and kids, I don't know that Kids. Certainly my kid, I don't think did understand the separation piece that we're not together, but we're still in the same house. And now all of a sudden we're not. And I have this new person in my life. So so my kid and spouse met through video calls.

00:30:36:01 - 00:31:02:01

They and I did not even meet in person. We met in January of 21. We didn't meet in person until May of 21 because of all the border crossing rules. So, yeah, it's this person who's been on Zoom for the last couple of months and now they're here in my house and my dad is not here. So a lot of therapy with that, a lot of working through tough feelings and, you know, it was a really a really difficult time.

00:31:02:01 - 00:31:33:00

And I don't know now, even if there's not another partner coming in to read reconfigured family relationship, that that grief is still there and the I don't know there's something about the the I wouldn't have changed anything we did what we needed to do and and and we're we're working through it but that adjustment to parenting I think was was difficult.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:51:15

And me being a co-parent with someone who I don't have all of that shorthand with and and who doesn't know all the things that I know to experience, you know, U.S. health insurance, you know, there's all these things that I never really had to think about or work through are now suddenly I have to I have to go back and go through every step.

00:31:51:15 - 00:32:21:01

So, I mean, where we're at now, if a green card has arrived, I'm actually talking to you from Canada right now because I've been able to visit Montreal family for the first time in almost two years. So that's really that's really special. And yeah, and my kid has new grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins, you know, and even as challenging as that has been, I think bringing those people into his life, it's just made it richer.

00:32:21:03 - 00:32:40:06

Yeah, for sure. I think there's a lot of different parts of that to unpack and thank you for walking us through that. I was thinking about, I know this isn't about me too, but our stories line up a little bit. I moved in with my current partner about before I was legally divorced, but around we've already been separated for a year and a half.

00:32:40:06 - 00:33:04:19

You're right. These timelines don't matter. At some point we moved in together and we moved the kids in together and we have three kids. I think one of the biggest things for us were, first of all, learning the kids and how to add a new kid to our family. I think every family, when you add a new baby or a second baby or adopt a kiddo or whatever it is you that changes everything, you know, you have to learn how to pair it together.

00:33:04:21 - 00:33:23:08

So we were doing we did you have to do this and adding a bonus parent by already having a set way of parenting that kid, but then adding a new parent to the space. I think that for us was the biggest hurdle. We both we parenthood. We had very similar values in parenting, but we still attempted it in different ways.

00:33:23:10 - 00:33:39:10

So it sounds like in your space, you know, your spouse didn't have parenting experience before, but I'm sure that they had an idea of what they wanted to be like as a parent or what it would be like. And as we all know, the first time incoming parent that blows up and you have to figure it out as you go because each kid is different.

00:33:39:12 - 00:34:10:07

Yeah, right. There's a there's a lot of neuro divergence in our house. So and that, too, is, you know, like I said, videogames are really important to my kid. The sensory reality of loud video games, seeing them and hearing them is is overwhelming a lot of times for the adults in the house. Right. So it's like how how do we negotiate something like screen time when there's a new person who has different kinds of boundaries?

00:34:10:07 - 00:34:34:22

But that's the ways that my kid and I connected. So me feeling a bit stuck between how do I honor the sensory needs of my spouse while also honoring the relationship I have with my kid, and that I don't know if you've had this balance of, you know, in parenting and showing that you're still there for your kids, perhaps tinged with that grief of I've destroyed their lives right.

00:34:34:23 - 00:34:55:21

Got to show up even more ways with. I also have this other person I'm trying to respect and love and, you know, include in my family dynamic. And I don't always know how you know, you don't always know how well things have worked in that space. So there's different ways you can negotiate, ways you can talk through it.

00:34:55:21 - 00:35:17:19

But what's work specifically for you? I think being being as honest as we can with our kid and maybe in the beginning we kept too much. You know, I think I think that's a mistake a lot of folks make is not wanting to scare kids or not wanting before a decision is made. You don't want to reveal too much about what's going on, the parents.

00:35:17:19 - 00:35:42:16

But I think we kept too much from him. And so being honest and encouraging him to be honest, too. I like what you said earlier about you can be a whole person in all of these spaces. Part of that being a whole person is being honest about where you're at, what your boundaries are, what you can handle. So just coming right out and saying, We're trying to learn how to figure out how to do this, here's what mom needs, here's what I need, here's what you need.

00:35:42:19 - 00:36:07:00

How can we that all work together? And it's definitely not that I'm saying it. Know, it sounds easy. It's definitely not to get to those places where you've figured it out. Another thing we've we've tried to do is we write a lot of things down. So we have a TV schedule and whoever's time it is for TV, they get to pick what's on it.

00:36:07:01 - 00:36:25:09

Other people can be around, you know, But like, who decides something is right there on a piece of paper. And that's a small thing that's been really helpful because we don't have to do that negotiation. We already decided and this is how it was going to go. And so this is how it gets enacted, you know, at at home.

00:36:25:11 - 00:36:47:01

And I think just listening to, you know, the that also sounds kind of flip. You just have to listen you know, I have had to learn a lot of curiosity, again, taking for granted that before I was doing parenting with someone I knew really well and could fill in a lot of gaps for, Well, now I can't and I can't presume that I know everything.

00:36:47:01 - 00:37:05:06

So I have to ask, you know, if if my spouse wants to put a different screen time limit than I would, I can't just go. Well, okay. Which I did in the beginning, like, okay, well, you're new here, so I guess this is what you're going to do. It's more like, why is that important to you? Or, Here's where I'm from.

00:37:05:10 - 00:37:27:22

I'd like to know more about why you think this is a good move. And we've we've found some ways to negotiate around that. So, yeah, I think just just writing down as many things as you can and and asking those curious questions because there's a lot of ego in the space like wanting to do it my way or wanting to do it the way I've always done it.

00:37:27:24 - 00:37:50:12

And I think that's the hardest part of letting go is okay, it's not all about me anymore. Yeah, the illusion that it was ever about me. Yeah. You've mentioned letting it go a few times on the podcast. I can see it's true, though, when you go through the process, I'm. I felt this too. It's like I've got this figured out.

00:37:50:12 - 00:38:08:16

You know, it must work in the same way again. You know, like, of course, this kid, you know, But also we always change. You're kiddo is going to change. Like I have a 12 year old now. He is such a different he's got some of the basic foundations that he's always been. But 12 is so different than six or ten even like he changes over time.

00:38:08:16 - 00:38:34:09

So even with your kids, everything changes. All right. So it's like, yeah, you say just listen is being flippant, but I don't think it is. I've been in relationships where listening isn't a number one, but others have been too. I think that's important. Listen, be curious. Support each other. That's really between my spouse and I. But what we've made a family commitment is always turned toward each other.

00:38:34:09 - 00:38:59:02

So even when there's a conflict, you know, and that that triad relationship is is interesting, too. Right? Because there's always seems like there's a two against one in whatever configuration it happens to be. But, you know, even when there's a conflict, we always come back together. And and that has been really important for, you know, meltdowns and figuring out logistics.

00:38:59:02 - 00:39:17:11

And I don't think that we would have made it as far as we did in any way if we didn't. And it's hard to do sometimes, you know, to turn toward and to be curious and always come back. But we found it to be really, really foundational. Even even with my ex, you know, it's he's he's a part of our lives.

00:39:17:11 - 00:39:46:17

He's a part of our family. He's always going to be. So there's no situation where we can completely discount what he thinks, feels or believes. It always has to be a part of our math. Yeah, Yeah. Turning in towards each other. I like that. I think that I've been reading a lot. I don't know, as a new parent, starting this podcast, as a new parent, as a parent in a new space, you know, outside of the original nuclear family that I had, I've been reading a ton.

00:39:46:17 - 00:40:03:15

And one of the things that I always come back to is repair and how important that is for our kids. And it sounds like that's a dedication you've done as a family is to repair and come back to each other. So an additional and very important word in our house. We you know, you've been with my kid is having conflicts with others.

00:40:03:15 - 00:40:29:12

We we don't use well, we say the word apologize like you. You know, this is a situation where a repair means an apology or, you know, being more explicit about what that is, but also giving the options for for repair. And I never really thought about in the context of divorce until just this moment. But, you know, I wonder if there is a configuration where a divorce is a repair.

00:40:29:14 - 00:40:58:06

It's a it's a gesture toward accepting and acceptance and respect and and moving forward in a way that isn't filled with resentment or shame or guilt or anger. It's a gesture toward we can we can patch this up and be stronger in the next phase of our lives. Mm hmm. Yeah. As you're saying that, I feel I felt like a lift of relief, actually, when I think about divorce.

00:40:58:06 - 00:41:21:02

I mean, we started this podcast out thinking about the shame of divorce and all of the failure it is, but thinking about divorce as a repair, as a moment where you're repairing a relationship that was not working for everybody in that space, that it actually can be framed in that way as a recreation of your life and where you're at together and in what you need.

00:41:21:02 - 00:41:45:04

I really love that. I love that a lot. Well, then how can you talk like that for your substance? I mean, I don't there's there's pain no matter what. There's the pain of saying that this is this is what needs to happen. There's a pain of hearing that this is what is going to happen. And, you know, I was the person who said it out loud like, this isn't working.

00:41:45:06 - 00:42:11:22

Mm hmm. Yeah. And even now, I'm like, I can't even say the divorce word, but, you know, this isn't working. We need to end this this phase of our relationship. And and that was a big question that we both had, was like, what does this look like from here? And, and in talking about the destroying, it's there's there's a way that destruction can be you know, destruction is not necessarily obliteration.

00:42:11:24 - 00:42:29:24

We didn't we didn't get rid of it. But you can repair something. You can rebuild from the foundational pieces that are there. And that's a metaphor that I've really taken through this process of, you know, if I were going to go out and, you know, maybe a shed in the back got knocked over, I'm going to repair it.

00:42:29:24 - 00:42:55:18

I'm going to see what's there, see what works, see what I can salvage, bring in new pieces to support that foundation. And, you know, the goal is to get back to something that functions the way it used to. And when I think about myself in this equation, it's like there there must have been some point along the line where I knew it was already broken, like in myself, I was already broken.

00:42:55:20 - 00:43:28:21

And if the divorce is a gesture toward repair, then it's healing the self just as much as it's healing the family. And I think that's a common story that I hear. And you said to your kids are seeing a new side of you. They're seeing you in a in a different kind of space. We recently had our third wedding celebration because in 2001 we got married on Zoom and then we had a calling, a ceremony yet last May with my parents because our parents weren't able to be there at the the first wedding with us.

00:43:28:23 - 00:43:46:24

And I always knew that I wanted to do a big celebration in Montreal because none of the Montreal people were able to be at our wedding. And so we had that last month and the number of people that surprised me by coming up to me and saying, I've never seen you so happy. And I'm just like, I love you.

00:43:46:24 - 00:44:19:00

I didn't really that's it wasn't my intention, really. I just that's the natural consequence of Spark. So, you know, I'm guessing that your focus on listening to the podcast might be at various stages of her career divorce stories. But I think I think keeping yourself at the of the center and and how is this going to reveal to you how you show up in different ways and what life could possibly be is it's really invaluable.

00:44:19:02 - 00:44:38:02

And again, just the choice. It's just a choice and it yeah, yeah it is just the choice. I know. And honestly, I think we're both on the other side of it. We're not like ten years out or whatever, but I think we probably have our listeners that are thinking about, Can I get divorced? Do you have our people who are in the process of it?

00:44:38:04 - 00:44:54:22

They're the people like you and I that are the newbies, you know, kind of getting into it. But I'm now in a spot where I can feel like finally I see the fruits of that labor. I had this goal. I could see where I was supposed to be heading. I can see now my family is getting stronger. We're talking about things in different ways.

00:44:54:22 - 00:45:12:04

You know, we made the dedication. I made the dedication to that to that repair and that choice. And I didn't think about it that way when I first decided to get divorced either. When I told my husband I was thinking I was in, I felt like I was in a crisis space and I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:45:12:06 - 00:45:33:15

I'm in this space where I just can't anymore. So in that moment, it didn't feel like it was going to be a repair. But I had known that, you know, after reading Untamed and, you know, seeing all the things like the Bible of the queers who have gotten divorced now I feel like there's the space of that book didn't make me get divorced, but it definitely showed me that it was okay to get divorced.

00:45:33:15 - 00:45:56:04

And I appreciated that about it. I'm so glad you brought that up because, yeah, I read a bunch of books too. I'm a memoirist. I have a lot of experience in autobiography and specifically the way that autobiography and memoir teaches us how to live. We look to the stories of other people who have gone something through, something similar to what we're going through, to know that we're going to be okay.

00:45:56:08 - 00:46:20:02

So I take my responsibility as someone on, you know, who's turned a corner in this space. I never I never want to forget those those sobbing on the floor moments because so many people are in that space. And just like me going, I can't do it. I don't know how many times the one piece of paperwork that got me every time was the holiday schedule that you have to fill out for kids.

00:46:20:02 - 00:46:40:08

Like who? Where are they going to be for which holiday? I still get this, like, anxious heart squeeze thinking about is this what my kid's life come to is eight eight, 5 p.m. on Father's Day and every other year it's just some of those details are horrific. I can't even imagine. I guess I can't because I did it.

00:46:40:08 - 00:47:09:17

But just that pain is so visceral and real and a lot of the stories focus so much on the other side of like, Yeah, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be fine. There are some really beautiful moments for sure. There's still a lot of pain. So if if this idea that once you get divorced, everything is going to be okay and I'm going to live out my dreams, yeah, that that may well be true, but you're not going.

00:47:09:19 - 00:47:29:16

There are so many pictures of me at the third wedding celebration just sobbing. I'm talking about crying a lot on your podcast, but the we didn't have a song that we were going to dance to at the. So even though we had a 16 hour car trip from Illinois to Montreal to figure this out, we didn't come up with a song.

00:47:29:16 - 00:47:54:14

And yeah, it was actually during the ceremony. Yes. When our efficient said, well, somehow you made it here. And I thought, I know what it's going to be. So I went up to the deejay and I requested somewhere from West Side Story, the Aretha Franklin, her get It Right. Yeah. Because that beautiful line of somewhere there's a place for us.

00:47:54:14 - 00:48:20:01

There's a time for us somewhere, somehow, somewhere, you know. And that's that's the that you're going into when you make this decision. You don't you don't know what what it looks like or how it's going to turn out. It's just trusting that voice that says this is the right thing to do. Mm hmm. Yeah. You have to follow your intuition through a moment of intense pain.

00:48:20:03 - 00:48:39:00

I think that there's a lot of stories in our in our world that we can think about in that, right? Like you lose a parent. God forbid you lose a kid. You know, you. I don't even believe in God. I don't know. I'm using that phrase. Nobody knows. Oh, shoot, My mom's going to listen to this and know, okay, Anyway, so just kidding.

00:48:39:02 - 00:49:01:16

No, she knows. Okay. I think that there's the space that we get in where we have these moments of grief in our life, where we have to make decisions and we have to move forward. And in all of those times, we we learn and grow from it. If we are doing it intentionally and listening intentionally to our intuition and, you know, our bodies as we move through it.

00:49:01:16 - 00:49:24:03

And I think that divorce is one of those things, you know, it's not a different it's not any different than those things. You're, you know, you're you're choosing it. But, you know, and there sometimes you can't choose, but it's still that same sort of grief, that same sort of moment. And so for listening to our bodies and being intentional, it's messy and it's hard.

00:49:24:05 - 00:49:45:04

And I mean, I have so many journal articles. I'm going on a tangent here about like the beauty of this hard time. Like I've got into the book bittersweet and just was like in the in the murky middle in that like messy portion of the pain, you know, crying on my floor. But then the next day being like have this great moment with my kids and my partner and this is like a beautiful time to rebuild.

00:49:45:04 - 00:50:11:11

And, you know, I like that. It's so messy. And it's a roller coaster, That roller coaster. Yes. Yes or yes, there are. And I think at least for me, it helps me appreciate those moments a lot more because it's not that there are fewer father between it's just I'm paying attention to the more and even the times when I had a really on the floor moment I knew which I'm paying attention to your body.

00:50:11:11 - 00:50:27:18

I knew this was the right thing to do. It was just so painful. And I'm just grew by just saying, I hate this. I never wanted this. And I hate. Yeah, And and that's the reality of it. It didn't keep me from moving forward. It didn't keep me from taking the action that I needed. It was just in this moment.

00:50:27:18 - 00:50:49:22

I hate it. And I'm going to close this parenting plan and I will open it up some other time. So it has to be and whatever whatever leads you to wherever you're going, looking back on it, it is a lot easier to see. Oh yeah, in these moments I was and my whole thing when I started this divorce process was at the end of this.

00:50:49:24 - 00:51:11:09

I want to be able to say I was brave and that's all I ever focus on was I'm going to be able to say what needs to be said. I'm going to be brave and make the appointment with the divorce attorney. I'm going to be brave and file this paperwork. I'm going to be brave when I remind my ex that we need this money for this thing that I've been asking about it for.

00:51:11:11 - 00:51:39:20

You know, like even those ongoing moments of of bravery. But that's always what I clung to is I don't want the story where I took the easy way out or where I am. And for me, the easy way out would have been to deny myself that for a long time felt like the easiest thing to do. And so in order to do that, I had to be brave and tell somebody what I needed and say that we were going in a different direction and do that destructive work so that we could rebuild stronger.

00:51:39:22 - 00:52:17:11

MM Who? I'm so glad that you're here talking to me about this because I'm connecting with that a little bit. I think that it's important to an important story to to talk about is the messy middle space and going down that path. And for me to connecting with that, like denying myself was the easy way. And I think I think all of us, if we think about the I don't know, as women there's probably men listening to this podcast, to the if you grew up thinking you had to sacrifice yourself for your marriage or for your partner or for your family or whatever it is, you had the idea that you had to sacrifice yourself

00:52:17:11 - 00:52:36:02

for it. And so getting divorced means you're choosing it and you're choosing yourself, and you have to come to the conclusion at that same time that, you know, the crisis is kind of of self like that. I can focus on myself and it's going to be okay. And actually it's going to be better for our family if I focus on myself.

00:52:36:04 - 00:52:57:17

And that's a wild flip. But I don't think I did not grow up thinking No. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but I'm starting to enter into spaces where people did not know that I was married before and married. And so now I'm in spaces where people don't know that and my faith and like configuration as it is right now, is all they've ever known about me.

00:52:57:23 - 00:53:26:05

And it's shocking. Someone asked us before, like you know, so you've got a ten year old like, how did that work? And I just look at them with this like, huh, What have you thought of that? Forgetting that they didn't know my story before and say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, Duncan is my bio kid and I was married before, you know, and I didn't really know that at the time that there would be a time when this is the story that people would know about me.

00:53:26:09 - 00:53:46:23

And what a what a difference in a and a change. It's just it's sort of remarkable. And the way I write in that auto straddle article that one of my favorite things to do while I was getting divorced was watch a Simpsons episode called a Milhouse Divided. And it's one Milhouse. His parents get divorced. And it's so funny.

00:53:46:23 - 00:54:15:15

I mean, even when I was at my my lowest of lows, I found that whole situation just completely absurd. And I was able to look at it from a place of, yeah, this is how I used to think about all of these things. And now I think about them in a totally different way. And you know, there is this space that you've created for queer divorce is there's so many particular considerations about it.

00:54:15:17 - 00:54:46:03

And we're in a we're in a frame excuse me, totally different worldview than probably a lot of us grew up with. Even if, like I said, I've known all my life that this was who I was, but I wasn't putting out in any substantial way. So I absorbed all of those those lessons of heteronormativity and divorces, failure. And, you know, we see all the the jewelry ads of engagements and weddings, and there's a certain plan for what's to go right.

00:54:46:05 - 00:55:20:22

And when you as a queer person, whether whether or not you're out about it, even just making those choices for yourself, you are a model for anybody else who needs to see you being who you are. And that's that's another part that I take really seriously. I mean, a lot of the folks that I'm meeting now are young, queer folks who they see my family of, you know, binary lesbians, you know, raising raising a kid in our house.

00:55:20:22 - 00:55:49:06

And we've we host monthly gatherings for folks and you know, that to me says this is possible for you to you can have this very normal like who's going to change your existence that hasn't been a reality for a lot of people for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is important. And thank you for bringing that up because queer divorce specifically, I mean, legally, we couldn't even, you know, queers couldn't even get married until ten years ago.

00:55:49:06 - 00:56:15:05

And I know there was always partnership and break up and all of that, but we have been as queer people living in this space as outside of the norm our entire lives. And so the divorce just a divorce as a queer person takes on these so many different dynamics, the heteronormative divorce doesn't. There's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of other things that we don't have to think about.

00:56:15:07 - 00:56:37:16

Huh? Yeah. Well, you know, when when we started talking about recording this podcast, I picked this day specifically, you know, we're recording this on June 27th, June 7th just happens to be the anniversary of Stonewall. And it also happens to be my first wedding anniversary. Did you know it was the anniversary of Stonewall when you got married the first time?

00:56:37:18 - 00:57:10:12

I did not want to say, Oh, we got married on the 40th anniversary of Stonewall. Wow. And actually, for the for all my fellow late in life lesbians out there, the How did I know? Like, how did I not know who I was? June 27th, the day that I thought this was a good idea. So, yeah, I hope I hope everybody listening can in the midst of all this chaos and life changes, like find the fun, find the joy, find yourself and and enjoy.

00:57:10:12 - 00:57:38:08

Enjoy it as much as you can. There's a lot of there's a lot of love out there and a lot of support from the community, too. So this podcast, it's so good that you're doing this. Sarah But also helping each other through all these tough times. Yeah, the community is essential communities good for all of us, but especially the queer community, and finding those spaces where you can advocate for each other and support each other and build each other up and help us all create these alternative lives.

00:57:38:10 - 00:58:09:17

Alternative which is we could talk all day why we call it alternative, but these lives that are outside of this mainstream life, we're here for each other and we're willing to talk about it. I always and we've kind of been talking about lots of lots of really good pieces of information and lots of really good advice. But I'm wondering you could think of what is the most important thing for our listeners to keep in mind throughout their divorce or if they're in the rebuilding process, what would you say to them?

00:58:09:19 - 00:59:00:05

What a what a question. I feel like I said a lot of it already, but I think as you're going through the process, to be in the middle of it, that this will all be a funny story someday. All of it might take 50 years, but at some point you're going to look back and laugh, and those parts that are painful, they end up being just a just something to gloss over because what you're really going to remember is how brave you were, how you took the steps that you needed to take and how how strongly and how meaningfully you've impacted the lives of everybody you've come in contact with just by taking these steps.

00:59:00:07 - 00:59:35:03

So if it's possible to remember that, I please do, because anything that you're going through right now is it's one it's one step in a long process. Mm hmm. Wasn't particularly profound, but, man, sometimes these are profound. They are about filling out the paperwork, making the call, doing the file, setting up the account, closing the account, getting the signature of a lot of team stuff, and it'll just be part of the story someday.

00:59:35:05 - 01:00:04:06

I love that. I love that. The messy, murky part you're in, all those logistics. Eventually this neighborhood of your story was wonderful. Remember? No one will remember that of you are. Yes, that's true. That's true. Thank you so much for taking this journey with me today and talking from co-parenting to our I don't know, we hit on a lot of different topics and I really appreciate that.

01:00:04:06 - 01:00:21:13

Thank you for bringing those to me and coming along for the ride. I appreciate that. Of course, I appreciate you holding the space. And I would encourage anybody listening if, you know, I'm a I try to be a friendly face out in the crowd. So if you want to connect with me, please do. I know whatever you've got.

01:00:21:13 - 01:00:39:08

You're amazing community as well. And like said before, we're all we're all here for you. We are. And if you want to reach Kate, I'm going to put this in the show notes, but you can find her on Instagram, Kate On The Mic or on Substack as KatieGirl. So reach out and find your spaces and connect. Thank you so much. 00:00:09:23 - 00:00:31:09

Hi, Kate. Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club podcast. I'm so happy to have you today. Tera. I'm thrilled to be here. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever be on a queer divorce podcast. I think all of us didn't think that, but I'm so glad it's here and we get to share the experiences about this thing that this thing that we thought we'd never go through.

00:00:31:14 - 00:00:53:11

So I appreciate you being here to talk with me about it today. Can you give us a little bit of to start us off a background of your own experience with divorce and where you're at today? Yeah, absolutely. So the frame for my story is that my parents were married for 41 years and I grew up Catholic, so it resonates with many of your listeners.

00:00:53:11 - 00:01:18:13

It is true. It's also divorce is the ultimate failure. It's a failure of you as a person, of a family of of society, that that it's just failure on every level. And, you know, when I was early in the book, when when divorce started to become a viable option, I thought, oh, I have no experience with divorce, I have no frame of reference for this.

00:01:18:15 - 00:01:42:02

And then I really sat down and thought about it. My grandmother got divorced. I had a friends whose parents were divorced, but we didn't talk about it at all so that when I was growing up, it wasn't even I didn't even think about it. Right. But it's always kind of been a part of of my life experience. But it is that sort of, oh, it's never happened to me.

00:01:42:04 - 00:02:06:12

And it's part that, well, I'm definitely going to be successful no matter what. But also who wants to admit to being a failure? I'm going Becker High water. This is never going to be a part of my story. So, you know, that's kind of where I started out with thinking about divorce and just my own. Is this even possible for me?

00:02:06:14 - 00:02:33:18

Frame And you know, where I am today is I don't know that the the pain of that life change ever really goes away, but there's such a piece around it of I know I made the right choice and I think of divorce just like any other life transition. It has a neutrality. There's no good or bad. It's just it's a direction and a choice, just like anything else we do in our lives.

00:02:33:21 - 00:03:06:08

Mm hmm. That's a good reframe that I've been having to think about a lot, too, because I also grew up Catholic. My mom got divorced, though, when I was younger, and I saw her go through the process of the shame she had to experience from the church, the divorce process she had to go through with the church. This is an a podcast about being Catholic and getting divorced, but that is a huge it is a huge cultural aspect when we're younger, especially growing up in the eighties and nineties when divorce started to become more prevalent that you can get divorce, but it's shameful.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:26:23

And I feel like all of my friends I knew that were had divorced parents. It was like we were sort of in this kind of shame club that we didn't talk about. But then we were all friends because our parents were divorced. You know, it was interesting to think about. So glad that we're reframing and divorce is a choice that we all get to make based on our lifestyle.

00:03:26:23 - 00:03:57:19

And the dedication of marriage is something that we also get to make that choice of. So anyway, so I'm glad that you started with that. So how long have you been divorced now that we're talking? Well, I'm a pretty complex remarriage divorce story. I got divorced like official. I actually got divorced by email. I didn't know they could do that these days, but it was it was funny because I was doing a leadership retreat thing and we happened to be in one of Abe Lincoln's old courtrooms.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:32:18

I am from Illinois. And so we were visiting the courtroom and I got the email that said I was divorced. So I thought that was funny, that no matter what, I couldn't get out of going to court. But I the paperwork was signed in October of 2021, and I got remarried in November of 2021, which I think is a testament to something that folks coming from a more straight centered worldview going into a worldview have to adjust to is that timelines and the linear time almost doesn't stick.

00:04:32:19 - 00:05:01:04

It's yeah, it was a month between when I got divorced and when I got remarried. But this is a story that has been unfolding for years. So. So and I what is today? Today is we're in June. Yes, yes. Yeah. So I've been divorced for a little bit. I probably a noob. I don't know if there's a like how long you've been divorced hierarchy but I feel it still feels pretty new for me.

00:05:01:06 - 00:05:24:05

Yeah, maybe we're coming up with a new word for it. I don't know. New gets thrown on everything. I'm a noob too and legally two words just for a year. But like, like you said, the divorce process, especially in a queer divorce, we're thinking about the timeline, the process coming out. For some people it's it might not be that linear space and when you're legally divorced is different than when you got separated.

00:05:24:07 - 00:05:47:19

Like, I think about my separation time was I had told my ex-husband that I wanted to get a divorce in May. We weren't legally, legally divorced until the next year. In June. That's a whole I feel like I was separated from him way before we were actually legally divorced as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think we do. We pause on this this timeline thing.

00:05:47:19 - 00:06:18:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I I'm a storyteller, and the thing that I of in my story research for years has been before and after stories and how personal transformations get sort of distilled down to a moment. And that moment in a divorce story is when the divorce is final. And when we tend to tell that story, it's like, Well, I've only been indoors for a year or, well, you know, we're not quite divorced yet.

00:06:18:24 - 00:06:40:24

I know someone who has been with their queer partner for almost 15 years and they're still not divorced from their schooling. And that's just that's just how they live their lives, Right? Final. Yeah. And property and all that stuff, right. So if we are taking even a coming out story where it's like, well, the moment you came out, that's that's the beginning of your new life.

00:06:40:24 - 00:07:03:19

That's how we think. But if we take a step back and expand that story for even longer, like a divorce story can almost happen before a separation. I mean, there's that contemplate phase and there's that self-discovery phase. And if it's not included as part of the full picture, then we're really just getting to the well, when did you get divorced?

00:07:03:22 - 00:07:34:22

And and that discounts a lot of really rich, meaningful experiences that I think you're you're doing right by in this podcast. But giving people a place to talk about those in-betweens and messy middles and things before before and after you know decisions are made. Yeah. The actual divorce decree date is one date. That's part of an entire journey that we're all taking through life and separation and all of those things I was reading.

00:07:34:22 - 00:07:56:19

And I'm glad that you brought it up in your essay in Auto Straddle about your journey and with co-parenting and deciding a divorce. So part of that for you was starting to figure out what what family meant and is is an actual divorce, a physical divorce, meaning you're destroying your family, separating it. You know, will a family exist after after you make this decision?

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:17:19

So how did you come to the realization that divorce wasn't actually going to destroy? Can you see my air quotes? You can on the YouTube, but on the podcast, destroy your family and think about restructuring or reframing the idea of what family means to you. I love this question, and I'm glad that you pulled that out of the essay because this is the thing that I probably struggle with the most.

00:08:17:19 - 00:08:47:19

I mean, it took it took the entire time of of that pre contemplation phase, the decision making, the separation to really and even still, I have to remind myself that through this choice of of creating my chosen family there, the language of destruction is not a place I want to go when I was originally thinking about destruction and that's that's the the sort of mantra that was playing it over in my head is like, if you want this, if you want this, you are destroying your family.

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:13:01

If you make this choice, you're destroying your family. Everything I did was I thought, going in the direction of destruction. I remember the first call I made to a divorce attorney, the first time I saw a parenting plan packet. And both of those times I was just on the floor sobbing because this signified that I was taking action to destroy my family.

00:09:13:03 - 00:09:35:18

And again, when I took a step back and I looked at the bigger picture and I thought, well, what is what is family? And I've I've been queer my whole life. And actually that's actually how my husband and I met. We met at the birthday party of a woman that I was in love with. That's frankly, real honest love.

00:09:35:20 - 00:09:59:02

If you're listening. You knew that from day one. I was there and he knew who I was. And, you know, through the evolution of our relationship, it it just it seems to people that, oh, you got divorced because you came out or you got divorced because you're gay. And even even if that were true, that's fine. That's not my story, but that's what it seems on the outside.

00:09:59:02 - 00:10:20:06

And so I had to think about I know the concept of chosen family. I teach gender studies, right? I teach about chosen family. And for some reason I couldn't apply it to my own life. But when I really thought about, well, who are my chosen family? And I think about my my family of origin, they live about two and a half hours away from me.

00:10:20:08 - 00:10:43:24

I don't see them every day. We talk on the phone a lot, but not all the time. They're not involved in major, you know, life decisions. We don't share a bank account. You know, they're still my family. And so why couldn't I apply that same idea of family to a person with whom I did have all those legal obligations and was part of a marriage, and now I no longer have that same kind of connection.

00:10:43:24 - 00:11:11:15

It reminded me a lot of at some point. I grew up in my parents house and they bought my groceries and, you know, they they cared for me when I was a kid. The nature of our relationship has changed. It didn't destroy our parent child relationship. It's just taking on a new form and when I remove that shame of divorce as a failure, it became really clear that, oh no, this is just a re-imagination of family and there's a loss there for sure.

00:11:11:15 - 00:11:34:07

I still feel that loss, but reminding myself more and more, the more I did that, the stronger my conviction got in that this was the right thing to do and that ultimately everyone in my family would be better served by this decision. Yeah. Do you think that the that the grief is related to the changing of the relationship?

00:11:34:07 - 00:12:05:05

Obviously, restructuring the relationship can cause that grief, but also part of it partly to that shame, sort of still being feeling the shame and the restructuring at the same time. Yeah, sure, because I've got a ten year old and we're separated and and divorced when I was, you know, seven or eight. And again, not having that experience of my own or hearing the cultural stories about kids from a broken home and kids are permanently scarred by the force.

00:12:05:05 - 00:12:32:11

And all of those messages that I was really internalizing was like, how could I do this to him? How could I make his life worse? Yeah, that seemed to be the mark of a good mom to intentionally hurt. But it's still that, you know, the grief of what I thought my life was going to be. The story I thought I could tell about my life.

00:12:32:11 - 00:12:52:17

You know, I imagined that I would have a story like my parents where we were together for decades. And we got through the hard times and we didn't call it quits, which again, is part of the failure story, right? Successes stay legally married no matter what. And I'm sure we all know of relationships that would probably be better served by ending.

00:12:52:17 - 00:13:12:00

But they continue on because in part of the story that you have to see it through, you have to stick together. So so the grief is my life went in a totally different direction than I thought. I know that this decision caused harm to people, even if it's only temporary or if it's, you know, ultimately a good thing.

00:13:12:02 - 00:13:34:22

But still, the grief of of what I thought was going to happen still comes up every once in a while. MM Yeah. The grief is an absolute. That's I think if all of us have in common through a divorce is that there is grief in that change. And so that's important to remember. We each have our story of how we, what that grief entails, but all of us have that because it's a big change in our life.

00:13:34:22 - 00:14:13:18

It's a huge change in our life. If you were to explain to me right now who is in your family and what would you consider your family to be? What about you? Oh, you got to talk about who is it? Who is it? Yeah, you don't have to name them personally, but yeah, you know, I, I would my, my spouse is certainly a part of of my family and my, my kid, you know, and and we have different names for different ways we can figure that like so in when it's the three of us, our initials end up being K and D so we're the kind crew that's the three of us together.

00:14:13:18 - 00:14:36:03

And then with our kids, Dad is with us and his his people, you know, then we have a different configuration. And that I think has been really helpful to that. The nuclear family of this is the so and so's is really static. And it doesn't it doesn't account for all of those changes that might happen in a family.

00:14:36:05 - 00:14:57:05

So, you know, if folks are kind of struggling with that, that's one thing I would I would recommend is, you know, who's in your family now? Was in your family when you are at home, was in your family when you're at a reunion or a barbecue or, you know, a pride celebration or something like those family configurations can be different depending on where you're at and who you're with.

00:14:57:07 - 00:15:19:21

And I don't mean that to be a cop out. I mean, like you asked me a question, I you. But it can be it can be complicated to figure out. And I think there's a feeling with each of those families like and that's coming through work of boundaries, right. In order to love you. But our relationship or, you know, in order for us to maintain a relationship, this is what it has to look like.

00:15:19:21 - 00:15:47:15

So, for example, I don't go on vacation with my ex-husband. That's just not a thing we ever really did and nothing he's interested in doing now. So we just don't. And that's that's one of our boundaries. So a family vacation in is just the kind crew. It's the three of us. But if we are going to the movies, I'll invite him and his people to come to because that's that's part of a family situation.

00:15:47:15 - 00:16:14:17

So I think I think boundaries really define who family is and what you know, what your contracts are with them. Yeah, but yeah, in my house there are there are three humans and probably too many pets. And I just thinking as you're listening in, as you're talking about that, about how as I was growing up, I was taught this is our nuclear family.

00:16:14:17 - 00:16:42:09

We do everything together. And how freeing it is to actually think about the different types of relationships you have with different people in different spaces. So but we do that naturally over time, but we don't think about them as our family. So we have our friends, maybe our book club, we have people who we work with. These are different groups of people We have different boundaries set with in different spaces, and I think it's important for us to teach our kiddos how to to do that as well and how to affirm our relationships are healthy in each of those spaces.

00:16:42:09 - 00:17:07:23

So I really like how you are. You have how you talk about that, that you have your family structure is different in different spaces that you're in. But what's really important is the relationship with those people and how you set boundaries with those people. And each of those spaces you talk about a little bit about how you co-parent with your ex-husband and how that works for the two of you.

00:17:08:00 - 00:17:45:11

Yeah. So we we are very lucky. I know that not everyone has an amicable, friendly relationship with their ex, but I and I sometimes joke that we probably just should have stayed friends. Like we've always been really good friends, and that's something that's maintained in this new version of our relationship. But the the co-parenting piece, when I think about, again, the step back, the whole picture of our our story, I think every parenting couple, you know, whatever whatever you want to call that is in a co-parenting relationship.

00:17:45:11 - 00:18:12:18

I think that was an interesting revelation too, is like, well, just because we don't live in the same house doesn't mean we're suddenly co-parenting. We've always been doing the negotiation of, you know, who's who's going to watch the kid while the grocery shopping is done, or how do we make decisions together about our child or, you know, all of those things that that we call co-parenting or already happening in, you know, two or more adult families.

00:18:12:20 - 00:18:49:04

So now that we live in separate houses, the thing I noticed that is the the biggest change is that when we were together, I did I don't know if you or listeners have seen the mental load cartoon. I think it's by Emma. Emma Kat maybe. But it basically describes how in heteronormative relationships the woman ends up taking on the vast majority of remembering, you know, that the Furness filter needs to be replaced and where to buy the caps, who the kids who most typically the kids that is the pediatrician.

00:18:49:04 - 00:19:14:24

That is when they have like all of those things I would remember and I knew and I just made the appointments and went to get the things and paid the bills just because I knew those things. Well. Now, in co-parenting, we don't have that kind of relationship anymore. The communication has to be incredibly clear because I'm not taking on a lot of that behind the scenes, mental and emotional labor.

00:19:15:01 - 00:19:35:00

And that's that's definitely something I've been working on, and particularly as my spouse has come in as a co-parent to, is that my ex-husband and I have almost you know, we were in a relationship or a dating relationship for almost 20 years. We have a lot of shorthand where he can say, you know, I'm on my way. I know exactly what that means.

00:19:35:00 - 00:19:58:12

I know where he's at and how far he is, because he usually sends me this message when he's 5 minutes away. But my spouse doesn't know that. And so there were lots of questions like, what does that mean? Where are you? How do I fit into this? Yeah. So we're breaking that down to the, the basic component parts of who, what, where, when, why in communication has definitely been a change.

00:19:58:14 - 00:20:19:10

And I think, you know, the decision making, too, it's taken a lot for me to let go of. I know what's best for our kid and I know all of these things. So of course my decisions are always going to be the right one. There's a lot of letting go and letting him do it his own way. How do you how do you let go you what's worked for you?

00:20:19:12 - 00:20:46:01

My dress. It sounds like a lot of a lot of remembering, a lot of. I think it's also that it's remembering from my kids perspective, because he is going through something that I've never gone through before. He's got his own grief and his own ways that things have changed. And I can't control things that are not happening outside my sphere of family.

00:20:46:01 - 00:21:06:17

Right. And and so it's just as important for my kids who experience his dad doing things his own way as it is for him to see me growing, driving, you know, making my own choices, Like he deserves to see how that works with the both of us. Because for too long he only saw my way of doing things right.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:38:11

And and I remember to let go. And that he's got to see that that's an experience that he gets to have and maybe is part of the the the collateral damage image of the divorce. Right. Is that I can't control anything. And this is the way it's going to be. If they you know, I can't think of any specific example, but you know, the thing on the kind crew we do, a lot of nature walks and, you know, we're outside a lot.

00:21:38:17 - 00:22:07:09

That's not something my kid is going to do with his dad because he's not into that. It's not good or bad. That's just not an experience he's going to have with them. You're doing more like a game movie, comic book stuff, which is not necessarily going to happen. So it's it's again, that multiplicity of experience and it's really hard to let go sometimes because, you know, I've been doing this a long time and it's it's just a habit, you know?

00:22:07:09 - 00:22:26:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking about how it sounds like your houses and my houses are similar. Like my partner Carlene. I take the kids on hikes a lot and we're outside a lot and camping a lot. I don't even think they've been outside their dad's house since we got divorced. I mean, that's a hyperbole, obviously. But they.

00:22:26:12 - 00:22:50:05

It's completely separate. Households like bedtimes are different screen times, different, you know, we try to talk about those things. So we also had a release control. And for me, it's helped. It sounds like it's help for you to for your kiddo to think about how this is his whole life. You know, that you live half the time is that dads, you know, watching a lot of screen or movies, you know, going to comic bookstores in the other half of the time he's with me in nature.

00:22:50:05 - 00:23:07:06

And that's a holistic life. When I think about it, it gets an important to have all of those things when it comes down to it. Stuart, I have a question for you. It's I'm curious about your hiking. So when when you were together with your ex, was that an activity that you kind of tried to force on the whole family?

00:23:07:06 - 00:23:28:01

Like this is what we're doing now because I like to go hiking sometimes. Sometimes I wanted to be outside way more, but my ex was a very inside person. He would admit to that. I'm sure he's like, I'm an inside person. So I would bring the kids outside and push some of that. But now my new partner is an outside person and so we're she's pulled more of that out of me.

00:23:28:01 - 00:23:47:22

So I think my kids are seeing a different side of me as a parent, too. Like this is my whole self. So that's been something that's different for them. I think seeing me in a different way. I remember reading a babysitter, it wasn't the Baby-sitters Club, it was a Baby-sitters club spin off about a book like one of our babysitters cousins.

00:23:47:24 - 00:24:09:10

I'm hoping there's a listener out there. I know I read that too, but the the main character of this particular book had parents who were divorced and it was scandalous. It was this horrible thing. And I think her name I can't remember her name, but I remember very clearly this moment where she's talking about I think her brother's name is Jacob.

00:24:09:12 - 00:24:27:16

And they call somebody calls this kid Jacob Tutu, because he has to of everything because he has two households. And she talks in the in the narration of the book, this character is talking about how sometimes it's great to have two of everything because, you know, if you leave one somewhere, you've got the other one when you get back.

00:24:27:20 - 00:24:57:15

But also how horrible it is because you have to remember two different sets of things. And in the beginning of this process, I always went back to that book and remember how horrible she found it of like, Oh, she's split between two parents. And she but the the father I go into this journey the more I appreciate that piece where she does talk about, oh, I get two of these things I get I have my bedroom here and I have my bedroom there and I get to decorate it differently and it gets to be.

00:24:57:17 - 00:25:21:10

And so I think for my kid being ten, you know, having that different kind of experience is fun sometimes. And I think that is an experience that I wish I had when I was a kid, because everything I had was just one of every good that there is. There is fun and novelty in this this double household experience, too.

00:25:21:16 - 00:25:42:13

And I should say one of our co-parenting agreements early on was that we wouldn't refer to our houses as like Mom's house or dad's house. It would we would call the location by a street name. And so we've got to go pick it up from this lane or this street. And I think that's helped equalize it for my kid.

00:25:42:14 - 00:26:05:09

It's it's, you know, because we right now don't have 5050 custody. So I don't want it to seem like, oh, this one place is home. But this one other place isn't. No, they're both homes in different ways, just like when we visit our family, you know, in other places of the country, those are still homes. We just don't spend 365 there.

00:26:05:11 - 00:26:25:10

Right? Right. Do you think that helps with the idea of also maybe like Dad's house, dad's rules, mom's house, mom's rules, like, this is my house everywhere and I get to be a whole person in all those spaces. Yeah. Yeah, I think it does. And, you know, it also helps in the letting go of of like, Yeah, this, this.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:47:01

What do you do over there. You're her business. Yeah. But also that we can fall back on that with our kids and say I know that's how you do that at the house you know we're the houses sorry name but here we do it this way. And so avoiding that terminology of like, well, my house, my rules and it's like, no, in this space this is what we do.

00:26:47:01 - 00:27:06:08

Just like you have different rules at school, at the grocery store, you know, there are different ways to act and different rules when you're in those spaces. So this is just another space in your life where there are values and rules and ways of being a community that we've all agreed to by virtue of being in the space.

00:27:06:10 - 00:27:24:23

Yeah, and I could see how that could be freeing for the kiddo to think about themselves in that way, because they do that already, right? I'm at school in a church. For some people I'm at soccer practice or whatever. This is another space that I'm in, but I'm still a person. There's still these other, you know, basic rules and foundations for my life.

00:27:25:00 - 00:27:47:06

That's wonderful. I love that. Speaking about your house a little bit, you now have a spouse. Well, quickly, after your physical divorce, but through the process, you blended your family with adding this extra person. What? How is that going? And what have been some of the successes and hurdles you've seen for blending family and adding a bonus parent for your kiddo?

00:27:47:08 - 00:28:10:21

Yeah, I love the language of bonus parents because my kid has two moms and it was so funny last year for Mother's Day. I came home from school so mad and like, what's going on? What my teacher said I had to make two Mother's Day projects because I have two pups. He loves that. He loves the idea of having two moms.

00:28:10:21 - 00:28:37:16

And, you know, it's it's really my spouse is non-binary but but prefers the the identifier of mom in this in this case. So I think it feels like being together for a relatively short period of time. The challenges have been enormous because we're not only, you know, when we met, I was not divorced, it was during the pandemic.

00:28:37:18 - 00:28:57:13

So we were separated and had been for a while. But, you know, we were in separate bedrooms and my kids thought this was the greatest because he was always jealous that, you know, mom and dad get to sleep in the same bed. But I don't have a sleeping buddy that's not we thought this was very equitable, that we all got our own bedrooms and, you know, that was fine.

00:28:57:15 - 00:29:21:10

But because of the pandemic and everything, I happened to meet someone from Montreal and I mentioned earlier, I live in Illinois. So, you know, you can get out a map. That's a pretty significant difference. And so, you know, part of the reason that we got married as quickly as we did is because the borders were closed. There were some loopholes or ways that they hadn't really thought out the rules about the border crossing.

00:29:21:10 - 00:29:47:19

But at the time the border was closed and we thought if we have any chance of making this work like we have to get married and and start that process. So through the green card process and it was basically my spouse moved to the States and stayed. So that family transition that that was and they they did not have any kids to bring with the relationship.

00:29:47:21 - 00:30:13:04

So, you know, that was that was a bit less of a transition. But becoming a parent to an eight year old for the first time ever. And, you know, at the time, my my kids feelings were really charged with you, kicked dad out. You and what he said to me one day was you kicked dad out of his natural habitat, which both made me laugh and cry.

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:35:24

Interesting thing to say, but it was all very quick, you know, And and kids, I don't know that Kids. Certainly my kid, I don't think did understand the separation piece that we're not together, but we're still in the same house. And now all of a sudden we're not. And I have this new person in my life. So so my kid and spouse met through video calls.

00:30:36:01 - 00:31:02:01

They and I did not even meet in person. We met in January of 21. We didn't meet in person until May of 21 because of all the border crossing rules. So, yeah, it's this person who's been on Zoom for the last couple of months and now they're here in my house and my dad is not here. So a lot of therapy with that, a lot of working through tough feelings and, you know, it was a really a really difficult time.

00:31:02:01 - 00:31:33:00

And I don't know now, even if there's not another partner coming in to read reconfigured family relationship, that that grief is still there and the I don't know there's something about the the I wouldn't have changed anything we did what we needed to do and and and we're we're working through it but that adjustment to parenting I think was was difficult.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:51:15

And me being a co-parent with someone who I don't have all of that shorthand with and and who doesn't know all the things that I know to experience, you know, U.S. health insurance, you know, there's all these things that I never really had to think about or work through are now suddenly I have to I have to go back and go through every step.

00:31:51:15 - 00:32:21:01

So, I mean, where we're at now, if a green card has arrived, I'm actually talking to you from Canada right now because I've been able to visit Montreal family for the first time in almost two years. So that's really that's really special. And yeah, and my kid has new grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins, you know, and even as challenging as that has been, I think bringing those people into his life, it's just made it richer.

00:32:21:03 - 00:32:40:06

Yeah, for sure. I think there's a lot of different parts of that to unpack and thank you for walking us through that. I was thinking about, I know this isn't about me too, but our stories line up a little bit. I moved in with my current partner about before I was legally divorced, but around we've already been separated for a year and a half.

00:32:40:06 - 00:33:04:19

You're right. These timelines don't matter. At some point we moved in together and we moved the kids in together and we have three kids. I think one of the biggest things for us were, first of all, learning the kids and how to add a new kid to our family. I think every family, when you add a new baby or a second baby or adopt a kiddo or whatever it is you that changes everything, you know, you have to learn how to pair it together.

00:33:04:21 - 00:33:23:08

So we were doing we did you have to do this and adding a bonus parent by already having a set way of parenting that kid, but then adding a new parent to the space. I think that for us was the biggest hurdle. We both we parenthood. We had very similar values in parenting, but we still attempted it in different ways.

00:33:23:10 - 00:33:39:10

So it sounds like in your space, you know, your spouse didn't have parenting experience before, but I'm sure that they had an idea of what they wanted to be like as a parent or what it would be like. And as we all know, the first time incoming parent that blows up and you have to figure it out as you go because each kid is different.

00:33:39:12 - 00:34:10:07

Yeah, right. There's a there's a lot of neuro divergence in our house. So and that, too, is, you know, like I said, videogames are really important to my kid. The sensory reality of loud video games, seeing them and hearing them is is overwhelming a lot of times for the adults in the house. Right. So it's like how how do we negotiate something like screen time when there's a new person who has different kinds of boundaries?

00:34:10:07 - 00:34:34:22

But that's the ways that my kid and I connected. So me feeling a bit stuck between how do I honor the sensory needs of my spouse while also honoring the relationship I have with my kid, and that I don't know if you've had this balance of, you know, in parenting and showing that you're still there for your kids, perhaps tinged with that grief of I've destroyed their lives right.

00:34:34:23 - 00:34:55:21

Got to show up even more ways with. I also have this other person I'm trying to respect and love and, you know, include in my family dynamic. And I don't always know how you know, you don't always know how well things have worked in that space. So there's different ways you can negotiate, ways you can talk through it.

00:34:55:21 - 00:35:17:19

But what's work specifically for you? I think being being as honest as we can with our kid and maybe in the beginning we kept too much. You know, I think I think that's a mistake a lot of folks make is not wanting to scare kids or not wanting before a decision is made. You don't want to reveal too much about what's going on, the parents.

00:35:17:19 - 00:35:42:16

But I think we kept too much from him. And so being honest and encouraging him to be honest, too. I like what you said earlier about you can be a whole person in all of these spaces. Part of that being a whole person is being honest about where you're at, what your boundaries are, what you can handle. So just coming right out and saying, We're trying to learn how to figure out how to do this, here's what mom needs, here's what I need, here's what you need.

00:35:42:19 - 00:36:07:00

How can we that all work together? And it's definitely not that I'm saying it. Know, it sounds easy. It's definitely not to get to those places where you've figured it out. Another thing we've we've tried to do is we write a lot of things down. So we have a TV schedule and whoever's time it is for TV, they get to pick what's on it.

00:36:07:01 - 00:36:25:09

Other people can be around, you know, But like, who decides something is right there on a piece of paper. And that's a small thing that's been really helpful because we don't have to do that negotiation. We already decided and this is how it was going to go. And so this is how it gets enacted, you know, at at home.

00:36:25:11 - 00:36:47:01

And I think just listening to, you know, the that also sounds kind of flip. You just have to listen you know, I have had to learn a lot of curiosity, again, taking for granted that before I was doing parenting with someone I knew really well and could fill in a lot of gaps for, Well, now I can't and I can't presume that I know everything.

00:36:47:01 - 00:37:05:06

So I have to ask, you know, if if my spouse wants to put a different screen time limit than I would, I can't just go. Well, okay. Which I did in the beginning, like, okay, well, you're new here, so I guess this is what you're going to do. It's more like, why is that important to you? Or, Here's where I'm from.

00:37:05:10 - 00:37:27:22

I'd like to know more about why you think this is a good move. And we've we've found some ways to negotiate around that. So, yeah, I think just just writing down as many things as you can and and asking those curious questions because there's a lot of ego in the space like wanting to do it my way or wanting to do it the way I've always done it.

00:37:27:24 - 00:37:50:12

And I think that's the hardest part of letting go is okay, it's not all about me anymore. Yeah, the illusion that it was ever about me. Yeah. You've mentioned letting it go a few times on the podcast. I can see it's true, though, when you go through the process, I'm. I felt this too. It's like I've got this figured out.

00:37:50:12 - 00:38:08:16

You know, it must work in the same way again. You know, like, of course, this kid, you know, But also we always change. You're kiddo is going to change. Like I have a 12 year old now. He is such a different he's got some of the basic foundations that he's always been. But 12 is so different than six or ten even like he changes over time.

00:38:08:16 - 00:38:34:09

So even with your kids, everything changes. All right. So it's like, yeah, you say just listen is being flippant, but I don't think it is. I've been in relationships where listening isn't a number one, but others have been too. I think that's important. Listen, be curious. Support each other. That's really between my spouse and I. But what we've made a family commitment is always turned toward each other.

00:38:34:09 - 00:38:59:02

So even when there's a conflict, you know, and that that triad relationship is is interesting, too. Right? Because there's always seems like there's a two against one in whatever configuration it happens to be. But, you know, even when there's a conflict, we always come back together. And and that has been really important for, you know, meltdowns and figuring out logistics.

00:38:59:02 - 00:39:17:11

And I don't think that we would have made it as far as we did in any way if we didn't. And it's hard to do sometimes, you know, to turn toward and to be curious and always come back. But we found it to be really, really foundational. Even even with my ex, you know, it's he's he's a part of our lives.

00:39:17:11 - 00:39:46:17

He's a part of our family. He's always going to be. So there's no situation where we can completely discount what he thinks, feels or believes. It always has to be a part of our math. Yeah, Yeah. Turning in towards each other. I like that. I think that I've been reading a lot. I don't know, as a new parent, starting this podcast, as a new parent, as a parent in a new space, you know, outside of the original nuclear family that I had, I've been reading a ton.

00:39:46:17 - 00:40:03:15

And one of the things that I always come back to is repair and how important that is for our kids. And it sounds like that's a dedication you've done as a family is to repair and come back to each other. So an additional and very important word in our house. We you know, you've been with my kid is having conflicts with others.

00:40:03:15 - 00:40:29:12

We we don't use well, we say the word apologize like you. You know, this is a situation where a repair means an apology or, you know, being more explicit about what that is, but also giving the options for for repair. And I never really thought about in the context of divorce until just this moment. But, you know, I wonder if there is a configuration where a divorce is a repair.

00:40:29:14 - 00:40:58:06

It's a it's a gesture toward accepting and acceptance and respect and and moving forward in a way that isn't filled with resentment or shame or guilt or anger. It's a gesture toward we can we can patch this up and be stronger in the next phase of our lives. Mm hmm. Yeah. As you're saying that, I feel I felt like a lift of relief, actually, when I think about divorce.

00:40:58:06 - 00:41:21:02

I mean, we started this podcast out thinking about the shame of divorce and all of the failure it is, but thinking about divorce as a repair, as a moment where you're repairing a relationship that was not working for everybody in that space, that it actually can be framed in that way as a recreation of your life and where you're at together and in what you need.

00:41:21:02 - 00:41:45:04

I really love that. I love that a lot. Well, then how can you talk like that for your substance? I mean, I don't there's there's pain no matter what. There's the pain of saying that this is this is what needs to happen. There's a pain of hearing that this is what is going to happen. And, you know, I was the person who said it out loud like, this isn't working.

00:41:45:06 - 00:42:11:22

Mm hmm. Yeah. And even now, I'm like, I can't even say the divorce word, but, you know, this isn't working. We need to end this this phase of our relationship. And and that was a big question that we both had, was like, what does this look like from here? And, and in talking about the destroying, it's there's there's a way that destruction can be you know, destruction is not necessarily obliteration.

00:42:11:24 - 00:42:29:24

We didn't we didn't get rid of it. But you can repair something. You can rebuild from the foundational pieces that are there. And that's a metaphor that I've really taken through this process of, you know, if I were going to go out and, you know, maybe a shed in the back got knocked over, I'm going to repair it.

00:42:29:24 - 00:42:55:18

I'm going to see what's there, see what works, see what I can salvage, bring in new pieces to support that foundation. And, you know, the goal is to get back to something that functions the way it used to. And when I think about myself in this equation, it's like there there must have been some point along the line where I knew it was already broken, like in myself, I was already broken.

00:42:55:20 - 00:43:28:21

And if the divorce is a gesture toward repair, then it's healing the self just as much as it's healing the family. And I think that's a common story that I hear. And you said to your kids are seeing a new side of you. They're seeing you in a in a different kind of space. We recently had our third wedding celebration because in 2001 we got married on Zoom and then we had a calling, a ceremony yet last May with my parents because our parents weren't able to be there at the the first wedding with us.

00:43:28:23 - 00:43:46:24

And I always knew that I wanted to do a big celebration in Montreal because none of the Montreal people were able to be at our wedding. And so we had that last month and the number of people that surprised me by coming up to me and saying, I've never seen you so happy. And I'm just like, I love you.

00:43:46:24 - 00:44:19:00

I didn't really that's it wasn't my intention, really. I just that's the natural consequence of Spark. So, you know, I'm guessing that your focus on listening to the podcast might be at various stages of her career divorce stories. But I think I think keeping yourself at the of the center and and how is this going to reveal to you how you show up in different ways and what life could possibly be is it's really invaluable.

00:44:19:02 - 00:44:38:02

And again, just the choice. It's just a choice and it yeah, yeah it is just the choice. I know. And honestly, I think we're both on the other side of it. We're not like ten years out or whatever, but I think we probably have our listeners that are thinking about, Can I get divorced? Do you have our people who are in the process of it?

00:44:38:04 - 00:44:54:22

They're the people like you and I that are the newbies, you know, kind of getting into it. But I'm now in a spot where I can feel like finally I see the fruits of that labor. I had this goal. I could see where I was supposed to be heading. I can see now my family is getting stronger. We're talking about things in different ways.

00:44:54:22 - 00:45:12:04

You know, we made the dedication. I made the dedication to that to that repair and that choice. And I didn't think about it that way when I first decided to get divorced either. When I told my husband I was thinking I was in, I felt like I was in a crisis space and I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:45:12:06 - 00:45:33:15

I'm in this space where I just can't anymore. So in that moment, it didn't feel like it was going to be a repair. But I had known that, you know, after reading Untamed and, you know, seeing all the things like the Bible of the queers who have gotten divorced now I feel like there's the space of that book didn't make me get divorced, but it definitely showed me that it was okay to get divorced.

00:45:33:15 - 00:45:56:04

And I appreciated that about it. I'm so glad you brought that up because, yeah, I read a bunch of books too. I'm a memoirist. I have a lot of experience in autobiography and specifically the way that autobiography and memoir teaches us how to live. We look to the stories of other people who have gone something through, something similar to what we're going through, to know that we're going to be okay.

00:45:56:08 - 00:46:20:02

So I take my responsibility as someone on, you know, who's turned a corner in this space. I never I never want to forget those those sobbing on the floor moments because so many people are in that space. And just like me going, I can't do it. I don't know how many times the one piece of paperwork that got me every time was the holiday schedule that you have to fill out for kids.

00:46:20:02 - 00:46:40:08

Like who? Where are they going to be for which holiday? I still get this, like, anxious heart squeeze thinking about is this what my kid's life come to is eight eight, 5 p.m. on Father's Day and every other year it's just some of those details are horrific. I can't even imagine. I guess I can't because I did it.

00:46:40:08 - 00:47:09:17

But just that pain is so visceral and real and a lot of the stories focus so much on the other side of like, Yeah, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be fine. There are some really beautiful moments for sure. There's still a lot of pain. So if if this idea that once you get divorced, everything is going to be okay and I'm going to live out my dreams, yeah, that that may well be true, but you're not going.

00:47:09:19 - 00:47:29:16

There are so many pictures of me at the third wedding celebration just sobbing. I'm talking about crying a lot on your podcast, but the we didn't have a song that we were going to dance to at the. So even though we had a 16 hour car trip from Illinois to Montreal to figure this out, we didn't come up with a song.

00:47:29:16 - 00:47:54:14

And yeah, it was actually during the ceremony. Yes. When our efficient said, well, somehow you made it here. And I thought, I know what it's going to be. So I went up to the deejay and I requested somewhere from West Side Story, the Aretha Franklin, her get It Right. Yeah. Because that beautiful line of somewhere there's a place for us.

00:47:54:14 - 00:48:20:01

There's a time for us somewhere, somehow, somewhere, you know. And that's that's the that you're going into when you make this decision. You don't you don't know what what it looks like or how it's going to turn out. It's just trusting that voice that says this is the right thing to do. Mm hmm. Yeah. You have to follow your intuition through a moment of intense pain.

00:48:20:03 - 00:48:39:00

I think that there's a lot of stories in our in our world that we can think about in that, right? Like you lose a parent. God forbid you lose a kid. You know, you. I don't even believe in God. I don't know. I'm using that phrase. Nobody knows. Oh, shoot, My mom's going to listen to this and know, okay, Anyway, so just kidding.

00:48:39:02 - 00:49:01:16

No, she knows. Okay. I think that there's the space that we get in where we have these moments of grief in our life, where we have to make decisions and we have to move forward. And in all of those times, we we learn and grow from it. If we are doing it intentionally and listening intentionally to our intuition and, you know, our bodies as we move through it.

00:49:01:16 - 00:49:24:03

And I think that divorce is one of those things, you know, it's not a different it's not any different than those things. You're, you know, you're you're choosing it. But, you know, and there sometimes you can't choose, but it's still that same sort of grief, that same sort of moment. And so for listening to our bodies and being intentional, it's messy and it's hard.

00:49:24:05 - 00:49:45:04

And I mean, I have so many journal articles. I'm going on a tangent here about like the beauty of this hard time. Like I've got into the book bittersweet and just was like in the in the murky middle in that like messy portion of the pain, you know, crying on my floor. But then the next day being like have this great moment with my kids and my partner and this is like a beautiful time to rebuild.

00:49:45:04 - 00:50:11:11

And, you know, I like that. It's so messy. And it's a roller coaster, That roller coaster. Yes. Yes or yes, there are. And I think at least for me, it helps me appreciate those moments a lot more because it's not that there are fewer father between it's just I'm paying attention to the more and even the times when I had a really on the floor moment I knew which I'm paying attention to your body.

00:50:11:11 - 00:50:27:18

I knew this was the right thing to do. It was just so painful. And I'm just grew by just saying, I hate this. I never wanted this. And I hate. Yeah, And and that's the reality of it. It didn't keep me from moving forward. It didn't keep me from taking the action that I needed. It was just in this moment.

00:50:27:18 - 00:50:49:22

I hate it. And I'm going to close this parenting plan and I will open it up some other time. So it has to be and whatever whatever leads you to wherever you're going, looking back on it, it is a lot easier to see. Oh yeah, in these moments I was and my whole thing when I started this divorce process was at the end of this.

00:50:49:24 - 00:51:11:09

I want to be able to say I was brave and that's all I ever focus on was I'm going to be able to say what needs to be said. I'm going to be brave and make the appointment with the divorce attorney. I'm going to be brave and file this paperwork. I'm going to be brave when I remind my ex that we need this money for this thing that I've been asking about it for.

00:51:11:11 - 00:51:39:20

You know, like even those ongoing moments of of bravery. But that's always what I clung to is I don't want the story where I took the easy way out or where I am. And for me, the easy way out would have been to deny myself that for a long time felt like the easiest thing to do. And so in order to do that, I had to be brave and tell somebody what I needed and say that we were going in a different direction and do that destructive work so that we could rebuild stronger.

00:51:39:22 - 00:52:17:11

MM Who? I'm so glad that you're here talking to me about this because I'm connecting with that a little bit. I think that it's important to an important story to to talk about is the messy middle space and going down that path. And for me to connecting with that, like denying myself was the easy way. And I think I think all of us, if we think about the I don't know, as women there's probably men listening to this podcast, to the if you grew up thinking you had to sacrifice yourself for your marriage or for your partner or for your family or whatever it is, you had the idea that you had to sacrifice yourself

00:52:17:11 - 00:52:36:02

for it. And so getting divorced means you're choosing it and you're choosing yourself, and you have to come to the conclusion at that same time that, you know, the crisis is kind of of self like that. I can focus on myself and it's going to be okay. And actually it's going to be better for our family if I focus on myself.

00:52:36:04 - 00:52:57:17

And that's a wild flip. But I don't think I did not grow up thinking No. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but I'm starting to enter into spaces where people did not know that I was married before and married. And so now I'm in spaces where people don't know that and my faith and like configuration as it is right now, is all they've ever known about me.

00:52:57:23 - 00:53:26:05

And it's shocking. Someone asked us before, like you know, so you've got a ten year old like, how did that work? And I just look at them with this like, huh, What have you thought of that? Forgetting that they didn't know my story before and say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, Duncan is my bio kid and I was married before, you know, and I didn't really know that at the time that there would be a time when this is the story that people would know about me.

00:53:26:09 - 00:53:46:23

And what a what a difference in a and a change. It's just it's sort of remarkable. And the way I write in that auto straddle article that one of my favorite things to do while I was getting divorced was watch a Simpsons episode called a Milhouse Divided. And it's one Milhouse. His parents get divorced. And it's so funny.

00:53:46:23 - 00:54:15:15

I mean, even when I was at my my lowest of lows, I found that whole situation just completely absurd. And I was able to look at it from a place of, yeah, this is how I used to think about all of these things. And now I think about them in a totally different way. And you know, there is this space that you've created for queer divorce is there's so many particular considerations about it.

00:54:15:17 - 00:54:46:03

And we're in a we're in a frame excuse me, totally different worldview than probably a lot of us grew up with. Even if, like I said, I've known all my life that this was who I was, but I wasn't putting out in any substantial way. So I absorbed all of those those lessons of heteronormativity and divorces, failure. And, you know, we see all the the jewelry ads of engagements and weddings, and there's a certain plan for what's to go right.

00:54:46:05 - 00:55:20:22

And when you as a queer person, whether whether or not you're out about it, even just making those choices for yourself, you are a model for anybody else who needs to see you being who you are. And that's that's another part that I take really seriously. I mean, a lot of the folks that I'm meeting now are young, queer folks who they see my family of, you know, binary lesbians, you know, raising raising a kid in our house.

00:55:20:22 - 00:55:49:06

And we've we host monthly gatherings for folks and you know, that to me says this is possible for you to you can have this very normal like who's going to change your existence that hasn't been a reality for a lot of people for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is important. And thank you for bringing that up because queer divorce specifically, I mean, legally, we couldn't even, you know, queers couldn't even get married until ten years ago.

00:55:49:06 - 00:56:15:05

And I know there was always partnership and break up and all of that, but we have been as queer people living in this space as outside of the norm our entire lives. And so the divorce just a divorce as a queer person takes on these so many different dynamics, the heteronormative divorce doesn't. There's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of other things that we don't have to think about.

00:56:15:07 - 00:56:37:16

Huh? Yeah. Well, you know, when when we started talking about recording this podcast, I picked this day specifically, you know, we're recording this on June 27th, June 7th just happens to be the anniversary of Stonewall. And it also happens to be my first wedding anniversary. Did you know it was the anniversary of Stonewall when you got married the first time?

00:56:37:18 - 00:57:10:12

I did not want to say, Oh, we got married on the 40th anniversary of Stonewall. Wow. And actually, for the for all my fellow late in life lesbians out there, the How did I know? Like, how did I not know who I was? June 27th, the day that I thought this was a good idea. So, yeah, I hope I hope everybody listening can in the midst of all this chaos and life changes, like find the fun, find the joy, find yourself and and enjoy.

00:57:10:12 - 00:57:38:08

Enjoy it as much as you can. There's a lot of there's a lot of love out there and a lot of support from the community, too. So this podcast, it's so good that you're doing this. Sarah But also helping each other through all these tough times. Yeah, the community is essential communities good for all of us, but especially the queer community, and finding those spaces where you can advocate for each other and support each other and build each other up and help us all create these alternative lives.

00:57:38:10 - 00:58:09:17

Alternative which is we could talk all day why we call it alternative, but these lives that are outside of this mainstream life, we're here for each other and we're willing to talk about it. I always and we've kind of been talking about lots of lots of really good pieces of information and lots of really good advice. But I'm wondering you could think of what is the most important thing for our listeners to keep in mind throughout their divorce or if they're in the rebuilding process, what would you say to them?

00:58:09:19 - 00:59:00:05

What a what a question. I feel like I said a lot of it already, but I think as you're going through the process, to be in the middle of it, that this will all be a funny story someday. All of it might take 50 years, but at some point you're going to look back and laugh, and those parts that are painful, they end up being just a just something to gloss over because what you're really going to remember is how brave you were, how you took the steps that you needed to take and how how strongly and how meaningfully you've impacted the lives of everybody you've come in contact with just by taking these steps.

00:59:00:07 - 00:59:35:03

So if it's possible to remember that, I please do, because anything that you're going through right now is it's one it's one step in a long process. Mm hmm. Wasn't particularly profound, but, man, sometimes these are profound. They are about filling out the paperwork, making the call, doing the file, setting up the account, closing the account, getting the signature of a lot of team stuff, and it'll just be part of the story someday.

00:59:35:05 - 01:00:04:06

I love that. I love that. The messy, murky part you're in, all those logistics. Eventually this neighborhood of your story was wonderful. Remember? No one will remember that of you are. Yes, that's true. That's true. Thank you so much for taking this journey with me today and talking from co-parenting to our I don't know, we hit on a lot of different topics and I really appreciate that.

01:00:04:06 - 01:00:21:13

Thank you for bringing those to me and coming along for the ride. I appreciate that. Of course, I appreciate you holding the space. And I would encourage anybody listening if, you know, I'm a I try to be a friendly face out in the crowd. So if you want to connect with me, please do. I know whatever you've got.

01:00:21:13 - 01:00:39:08

You're amazing community as well. And like said before, we're all we're all here for you. We are. And if you want to reach Kate, I'm going to put this in the show notes, but you can find her on Instagram, Kate On The Mic or on Substack as KatieGirl. So reach out and find your spaces and connect. Thank you so much.

Tera Wozniak Stortz https://terawozniakstortz.com
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Episode 8: Ash and Dawn, Healing and Building New Relationships Post Divorce
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