Episode 8: Ash and Dawn, Healing and Building New Relationships Post Divorce
In this episode, Tera has the pleasure of hosting Ash, a Certified Somatic Practitioner, and her wife Dawn, a relationship coach trained in a psychobiological approach to couples therapy.
Join us as Ash and Dawn, both divorcees turned happily married couple, share their inspiring journey of healing and love. Discover the remarkable story of how they met and the transformative healing they embarked on as a couple following their divorces.
But that's not all! Get ready to dive into some invaluable tips on healing, moving into new relationships (not just romantic ones) after divorce, and the profound impact of attachment styles on your healing journey and presence in relationships.
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
Ash and Dawn Noble
Ash is originally from Oklahoma, before she moved out to live with me (Dawn) in March 2021 soon after their unexpected and traumatizing separation from their wives.
We recently got married on May 14th on the Metolius River with all of our closest family, friends around us and live in Bend, OR where we work together in our Coaching Business teaching Queer couples all over the world how to build secure and lasting relationships in their 10wk program.
Ash is a Certified Somatic Practitioner and Dawn is a Relationship Coach trained in a psychobiological approach to couples therapy.
You can find Ash and Dawn on Instagram @ashanddawnnoble and on TikTok @queercouplesexperts.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00]
Hey y'all. It's Tera . Welcome back to the Queer Divorce Club. On today's episode, we have Ash, a certified somatic practitioner, and her wife, Dawn, a relationship coach, trained in a biological approach to couples therapy. Ash and Dawn are both divorce A and are now married. And during our conversation, they shared the story of how they met and the healing that they had to do as a couple.
Following their divorces. They also share some great tips on healing, moving into new relationships, following divorce, not even just the romantic ones, and how attachment styles affect your healing and presence in any type of relationship. Our conversation was. So, so amazing folks, and I can seriously not wait for you to hear it.
So let's get started.
Ash and Dawn, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. I'm so excited. I know. I just told you, but I am seriously a fan girl. I'm so excited. Excited. [00:01:00] It doesn't hurt to hear it. I know, I know. Thanks for having us. It was really exciting when you reached out. Yeah. We've been listening.
We've been listening to some of your episodes this morning. Yeah. Voice. Awesome. I'm excited to add to it and talk a little bit more about healing from your breakup and how to build stronger relationships after that. Cause I think some of us, not even, you know, of course we're leaving a romantic relationship that we didn't do well, whatever that meant.
And then there's other relationships you also lose when you go through divorce, like maybe your other family, maybe your friends, that sort of thing. So for me, I know it's essential to think about how can I do relationships better? Who do I need in my life? Like all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Great questions. So to get us started, can you give us a little background on who you are, how you, how you met your relationship, and what your background might be in breakup or divorce? Yeah. This is a serious lesbian love story. [00:02:00] Yes. What level would put, yeah, I think level five. We made it in five.
Outta five? Yeah. What, what would you say, man? Well, my experience with divorce is a little different than yours. Oh, you're right. I didn't get, yeah, mine goes back a little bit farther. I was married to a man in 2011 and left that relationship that marriage within two years after I had come into my identity and met a woman that I was working with who became my wife eventually, and And then I experienced divorce with her.
So the first divorce I experienced with my ex-husband was one that I chose to pursue. And the second one that I experienced was one that I moved through. I didn't choose it necessarily but yeah. And that's how you and I met was eventually through that divorce with my ex-wife and your ex-wife.
Yeah. You kinda, yeah. Fill in exactly how we met. [00:03:00] I mean, he wants like the nitty gritty details. It's on, we have podcasts. We released I think just the energy to get out the story almost, but yeah. Yeah, so it was you know, mid covid 2020 and my wife and I at the time were living in St. Louis. Originally from Oregon, but were there for like a nine month travel position.
And then Ash was in Oklahoma. We were working with queer couples at the time. And started my wife and I at the time were working with queer couples at the time, and we started a a support group for non affirming queer couples with non affirming family and friends. And so my ex-wife we're, we call them H Hns.
H and l Hnl, H l h, my ex. Yeah. Ex h started this you know, support group. Yeah. And Ash and my ex-wife, ex-wife joined her wife, the timeline. So pretty quickly this intensity started happening between initially I thought it [00:04:00] was the three of them, like this friendship, this really, this deep camaraderie.
We were new, so we didn't have a lot of friends, so I was excited, like she met somebody even if it was over online. And Yeah, probably within two months or so same morning, October 17th, we both were woken up and told that they don't wanna stay in our, in the, in the marriage. We weren't aware that they were living, we were living parallel lives.
Yeah. Different states. Mm-hmm. You wanna add anything at this point? Yeah. No, I mean, it was that separation was a, was a shock in every way. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And yeah, they both made the decision to go ahead and, and separate, and we were living the same life, had no idea the other was going through it. They did a pretty good job of trying to keep us from having communication with one another.
But we had met one time they had driven up to have dinner with us one evening. And so It was such a whirlwind, like a few [00:05:00] hours of interaction and mm-hmm. You know, I thought it was just a moment that we met some people, but ultimately, yeah. They told us they want a, a divorce and then we ended up going our separate ways.
I moved back to Oregon, Ash moved out into her own place, and then Ash got the information first about the affair that they were in and reached out to me on social media. Mm-hmm. So your ex-wives were together, is what you're saying? Yeah, H and l. Okay. Yeah. Sol an affair. Yeah. Yep. And so we Ash reached out and said, Hey, I think, you know, let's, we ended up, she reached out to me on Instagram and then we ended up on the phone together for like five hours talking, like putting all the pieces together.
Cause Yeah, that was the, the deepest level of grief I had ever experienced. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I was so confused on what had happened. Like my, I think. You know, being in a relationship, especially like coming out was big. Then to get with a [00:06:00] woman and marry a woman was a lot. Mm-hmm. And so it was like, my biggest nightmare was for her to say, I don't want this.
Like Right. I had already lost so much. Mm-hmm. To have it. Mm-hmm. So I asked Ash probably within a week. I said, can I fly you out to Oregon? I wanna like really meet you face to face. So, yeah. And so that brings you to today. Yeah. Fast forward to today. Fast forward a couple years later, we're here.
Yeah, yeah. No, it was a real relief to get to meet and connect with Dawn because we had just gone not only the greatest loss that both of us had experienced that time, but we had just spent months being completely lied to about mm-hmm. Everything, the friendship that was building, the relationship that was happening, and so, mm-hmm.
It kind of felt like you were walking around in a fog for a little while trying to put the puzzle pieces of your past back then, right? Yeah. Right. Divorce [00:07:00] is hard enough for anybody, and then Sure. On top of that, that intensity of the deceit in it. Yeah. Couldn't makes it to be like that level of grief and then to have to still like, pay your bills and, and care for, I had a brand new puppy at the time.
You know, so many little details of life. Like, you know, it, it was brutal. But on that phone call full transparency, Tara on the phone call. Yes, please. I felt two things on that call. I felt like wow. She talks a lot. I thought she can really
processor. Yeah. And then the other thing was like, there was something in her voice that was moving in my, in me, where I noticed it and I was like, no way. And this is, this even gonna be, this is way too messy. Like So from the first conversation there was something that felt more than just like a trauma bond.
I think that [00:08:00] was absolutely something playing out in, in the moment. Well, you don't like that phrase, right? Well, it's not the, the correct, it's not accurate. It's accurate trauma bond. Yeah. I think, yeah, we had both experienced a trauma Yeah. Connected through it in a way. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we ended up talking pretty much every day after that.
Like, how are you doing? What support are you getting? I try, I talked her into coming out to, to Port, to Bend, Oregon and I mean, quickly we, we were quickly infatuated with each other. It is like the, it's like the queer ultimatum, but in real life without the, did they make the show based on your relationship?
Right. It's not funny, but goodness. Ok. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very interesting. Yeah, that low key, that that show is like low key activating, so it's like I bet. I bet. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] So yeah, Ash moved out here to Oregon probably within how many months of us? Like five months? Well, yeah. I mean we went back and forth Oklahoma bend over and over, and then I was over it.
I wanted her here in Oregon. Yeah. And so she moved her whole life out here and We got married last month on May 14th. Yes. Yay. Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks. And you all work together too, so you're married, moved out, living together, working together, all of those things. Yeah. Yeah. It started out, you know, after I first moved out here, I started my own coaching business, helping queer women, working with queer women.
And then in the last year, Don and I decided to combine what we do. Mm-hmm. I'm a somatic practitioner and work with individuals one-on-one, and Don had been working with queer couples. Mm-hmm. And so we thought, why don't we bring this to together? That way couples can get the couples support and they can get the individual one-on-one support that mm-hmm.
You often [00:10:00] need when you're trying to repair. Yeah. Yeah. It is a great combination, that's for sure. Yeah. Breathing is so important. Okay. That's the very basic level of it. Very basic. Keep breathing. Yes. Keep breathing. You've already talked a little bit about this, but how the trauma and intensity of divorce, and you've been through a few, you know you've had different experiences with it.
Why is divorce so traumatic and so hard? You know, that disconnecting point with your partner? I mean, goodness, the, the most obvious answer is your whole life can be just blown apart. I know for my first divorce that I went through, I lost so much community and connection. Mm-hmm. Which, I mean, when it comes to connection and it comes to love, right?
But connecting with other human beings, this is as important to us as food, as water, we [00:11:00] need to have it. And so whenever we lose that community, suddenly as it pertains to who we are, right. Coming out. Mm-hmm. And living authentically, it's, it's a really scary and devastating thing to go through. It's primal, the fear that comes.
And goodness. Then my second divorce, I mean, same thing. You're losing, lost a lot of relationship there too. Relationship, friendship, of course. Family, my ex-wife's family. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What would you add? I mean, I think like one of our human needs is certainty and like our life. Like, everything changes.
You have no idea what I mean, how every element of your life will change and you have no idea what it's gonna look like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's terrifying. I think, I mean, on a, you know, a biological level, I mean, attachment is a real thing. Mm-hmm. And, and [00:12:00] that creates a real difficulty with the separation of that.
Mm-hmm. I think that that creates like confusion in us. Like I, I think, I think even if we know the relationship isn't good for us, we'll still stay at times because of that. Because of the attachment, that connection that you need. Yeah. Yeah, I think we attach our, our brains are wired to attach, to survive.
You know, I know, I know you have a, you were talking to us about attachment and all that, so we can get into that, but I think that's one reason why it does feel so terrifying. Like Ash was saying, it's like primal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that, mm-hmm. That unknown. All of these unknowns that are coming up all at once with relationships, finances, you name it.
Like everything feels as if it's a question. Now that uncertainty is what fuels. Anxiety mm-hmm. Within us. Mm-hmm. And so to have your whole world [00:13:00] become uncertain is, I mean, it's a shock to the system and it, it, yeah. Can feel incredibly overwhelming. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think like the validity of your, like I came from a very religious upbringing.
I was raised Mormon and so I'm one of 13 kids and I was the first one to be divorced. And, and so, well my actually that, that's not true, the second one to be divorced, but they were already questioning, you know, my sexuality or, you know and then that's just more, it felt like more proof, you know, that you're managing that, you know, that's a whole different layer.
But That's such a good point. Cause it feels like there's almost something to prove as a queer person. Mm-hmm. Right. Especially if, I mean, that's what I experienced too. Yeah. Like, coming out of my marriage with my ex-husband, it felt like there was. So much to prove in this new relationship that I was in, that if it didn't work, then well here's the proof for all of my friends and family that well, maybe I'm not gay.
Right? Maybe the [00:14:00] phase has passed or maybe well this just isn't real. Mm-hmm. And so that's, that's a big thing that can come up that came up in my own personal walk of divorce and I know comes up for other queer individuals too. Yeah, I feel like it came up for me too, and my, our parents, both my partners and I, we got divorced around the same time.
Moved in together shortly after with our kids and all of that. And I think both of our parents, our families didn't really know how to support us. And I think it was on two levels. Like you're strong women making this decision. You left your husband's, you know what you need. Yeah. You don't need support.
And then there was also like, you're queer now. I have no idea what to do with you. Who are you? Yes. Oh my goodness. Ah, I'm a new person. Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like everything's new. I was just telling Carly that the other day. She's like, why are you so cold all the time? I was like, I don't know. I feel like everything's new.
My body's changed. You know, what I need is different, you know? It's so wild. How new is it for you, the relationship? We, [00:15:00] Carly and I have been together for two, two and a half years, and we, I've been legally divorced for a little over a year. Yeah. This is a fun season. Yes. Oh no. What's this season? And it's, it's like you're meeting new parts of yourself, new versions of yourself that you just didn't get the opportunity to be with or meet before.
Mm-hmm. And so of course you're a totally different person. Yeah. Yeah. And, and as you build through it, as you heal more, you figure out who the, who, who I am today. And build on top of that and become stronger and, yeah. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. I feel like I feel like who I am today versus who I was in my previous marriage is not the same.
I'm not even close. Mm-hmm. To the same person. There's something about grief and loss like that, that can really develop you and I mean, I remember really trying to find a way away from the grief, like the suffering that it felt like, I know that so [00:16:00] many people have been betrayed and cheated on and lost, you know, had loved ones die.
But there's something, when you're in, it doesn't matter how many people you tell about it, it's like, it's such a lonely experience. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then just kind of found myself surrendering to it, you know? And just kinda letting it do work in me in a way. I feel like Ash and I both have said it feels like it developed us into the partners we are for each other.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So how do you get to that spot you're at in this season? So you're going through, you have all this grief, you have this intensity of the breakup. You're moving, you're trying to figure everything out, and so now you have to heal. Mm-hmm. And figuring out how to heal in that messy middle, in that murky space of.
All of that pain is difficult, but what are some of the cornerstones to actually healing and turning into that space of growth? Outside of the intensity of grief? I think of what you say, like you started following your Yes. Your yeses. Yeah. Well, I found my [00:17:00] voice that was I, my last marriage there was emotional abuse present and just on and off throughout, but specifically and especially at the, the end.
But so whenever we did separate and I got into my own space, I found, I mean, there was heavy, heavy grief to move through, but part of what helped me get through it was yes, finding my voice, but setting up. Safety nets is what I called them. For myself, I felt that I was just falling in space, like mm-hmm.
Like I was just in a perpetual fall and I didn't know where I was gonna land when I was gonna land. It just feels awful and shitty and terrifying. And so I did, I, I felt like I had to set up these safety nets. Getting, which was multiple therapists is how it started. I therapist, like, I think I had four therapists, so one time that I was, dang, you're equipped, fully resource [00:18:00] was, the pain was real.
I'll tell. And, and then just seeking out any other resources on my own to be able to turn toward myself. That's what I didn't, what I didn't wanna do was turn outward that everything else go out and party or drink or just self-destruct. Self-destruct. Mm-hmm. Because that felt like a really easy path to take.
Yeah. Yeah. And and also like a really lonely and sad path, and I knew that. And so through the work, I ended up finding a part of me again, which just felt, and especially when I, I don't know, the work had started, everything was turning and then Dawn and I connected and there was something about getting the truth from dawn, like, well, co collaborating, I suppose.
Mm-hmm. Sharing each of our stories. Yeah. We, we, we formed the truth. We got to the bottom of it, and that wa it freed me up. Yeah. You said we offered [00:19:00] each other. The gift of truth in the moment felt like precious. Yeah. I felt like a brand new person when I mean, and, and a matter of a couple of hours of a conversation, I felt like a brand new person and getting answers that I had been longing for and felt crazy about.
Yeah. Yeah. People asked us, like, excuse me, once they found out about it, they're like, are you like angry? Are you enraged? And I said, I felt relief. I, I felt like I was going crazy. Totally. There was something mm-hmm. That wasn't lining up. Yeah. I interrupted you though. No, you're okay. Some of those cornerstones.
Gosh. Well, one, giving my myself the space to be able to be with the big emotions that came up. Not trying to busy myself with seeing friends and doing things all the time. Mm-hmm. But to slow down and when something big came up, allowing myself to fall into it. I was lucky enough to get to work from home at the time, and so I had that kind of space.
But yeah, giving my sp [00:20:00] myself the space to be with those things. Not visiting myself too much, surrounding myself with people who had space for my pain. Mm. It became very clear with some friends that I was connecting with, that they didn't have the room for it, the capacity to be with it, not because they didn't love me, but it was a reflection of what they had the capacity for.
And it was important for me to recognize that Because that would've been a harmful space for me to try to get support from. Yeah. Yeah. Not that they're harmful in and of themselves, but I did the opposite. Like, she sat with her feelings and I'm like, fuck that. I'm, I'm gonna, like, I felt like, I don't know if any your listeners can relate with this, but I just started with like, movement in my life.
Like, I'm gonna rebuild something great. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna rebuild myself. I'm gonna when emotion comes up, it's, it's in the way. I've got more important things to do. Mm-hmm. So my like, I mean, I think pretty obviously my grief [00:21:00] and process has lasted longer, you know, because the way she like, You have like dates that matter to you, that you sit with it and you light a candle and she, you know, journals acknowledge it.
Yeah. And when I feel an emotion, I'm like, I get busier. You know, I make myself just a coping mechanism. Yeah. And also an avoidant attachment stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lines up with the avoidance. I do wish Carly was here. Cause we would be like, yep, I'm Ash, you're done. I can see it. This happens every time.
Yeah. She's always like, why am I two weeks behind you? I was like, well, I sat down and thought about it, you know, thinking about it. But you get there, right? You get there. There's always a point where you need to get there and you need to move forward. No matter how you do it. Oh, it's gonna come up, it's gonna come up, it's gonna sit in your face.
And if it takes years to do it mm-hmm. Then it'll, right. I mean, then the more we push it away, the, the longer it'll come up and sometimes the bigger it'll come up. Right. It's kinda like steam that [00:22:00] builds up in your body eventually has to offload that scene somehow. Yeah. It never goes away. Yeah. Your body remembers.
Yeah. Your body remembers. Tara, this can be your first, like, long form interview. We can go like, Joe rug style. Let's do it. Let's do, well, we can always split it up into two parts and talk about everything. Okay. Well, we can cut it off at any time. All right. I, I'm curious about that space when you're in that healing space, you're trying to trust yourself.
Again. For me, one of the hardest things was trusting myself in another relationship. Like I was in a new relationship as I was going through the divorce. Mm-hmm. But I also had a lot of people, I've lost friends I lost through it, that were pretty intense losses in my life. And so I had to get to a spot where I trusted that.
What are some ways that you might tell people to how to trust that? How to build the stronger relationships? How to, you know, do the healing and learn how to connect with others at the same time? This is such a good question. Oh my goodness. I [00:23:00] wish I. I wish I had something like this to listen to while I was going through it.
So I love that, just doing this at all. Mm-hmm. But what comes up for you right away, if anything? I think, I mean, I, I feel like it kind of goes a, a few different directions, but I, my process of trusting myself, it started before that, but this definitely impacted cause I was raised Mormon and so coming out of that, I would consider it a cult for myself.
Learning how to trust myself through the deconstruction process and then entering into a marriage that was just very into, very deceitful. I feel like I was working with a therapist and she was trying to help me see like, you trust people until proven otherwise kind of thing. But I didn't really.
I don't know why. I felt like I just got more confident in myself the further I got with it. So I don't know if I'm the right one to ask this question to. I didn't have a problem trusting friends after that. I just felt [00:24:00] like I learned a really deep, painful lesson. I learned about myself. I learned about, you know, relationships.
But for you, it seemed like that has still been kind of a process. Oh yeah. For trusting people. That's something that I haven't been able to relate with. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I feel really lucky because I found a partner who, I mean, could help me heal quickly. I will tell you, Tara, whenever Dawn and I first met and there were, we were very clear, there were, you know, there was something here mm-hmm.
That felt big. Not just some spark or like flippant. Thing, or that it was just in trauma, it felt much bigger and deeper. It's secret. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I remember telling Dawn like, I gotta heal myself first before I get into a relationship with you. I've gotta get my shit straight. Like I, I, things are whack in here right now.
And she was like, actually, it's not necessary to get to this point where [00:25:00] you're healed. And what does that even mean? Right? Like, what exactly are you saying and getting at when you're healed enough to be in relationship, which I think is an awesome question. Mm-hmm. Many of us don't ask when we start throwing out, I gotta be healed first.
Yeah. But as it pertains to friendship, part of the trauma that I experienced through this last divorce, friendships were engulfed in that, not just because. They were connected to me and my ex-wife, you know, as a couple, but because they were literally involved in well first of all, h Dawn's ex-wife.
Mm-hmm. She was befriending me the whole time while she was get access, engaging with access with my ex-wife Yeah. To get access to my wife. And so she was building up this relationship real gym. And so there was a trauma that occurred there, just around friendship and new friendship. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
And then one of my best friends, one of my closest friends at that time she [00:26:00] actually slept with my ex-wife. The very, the very night that my ex-wife said, Hey, I don't know if I can be in our marriage. And we were together for seven years. Mind you. Yeah. Yeah. Married for one, but together for seven.
And on the very night she ended up sleeping with one of our really our best friends. And so Friendship trauma. That's something I'm still healing from. And that's just taken time as I've been learning how to trust myself and find my voice and what are my boundaries, what are my expectations out of friendship?
And that's, that's just taken time to explore and get answers from myself. And also putting myself out there right. For some new friendships. Mm-hmm. And realizing this ain't it, like, isn't what I want. So I dunno, that's still developing. But gosh, healing there is no way that I would have found the healing that I have [00:27:00] found had it not been for you.
Because we experience trauma, we experience disconnection, we experience rupture in relationship with people. And we experienced the healing in relationship too. It's not to say we can't heal some parts on our own, we totally can. I was doing that for a while, but the, the deep, deep work came when Don and I decided to actually pursue a relationship and bump into those scary parts.
Mm-hmm. My therapist would tell me she what Dawn, what Dawn's therapist said, which was, you trust somebody until proven otherwise. And I was like, that is bullshit. No way. They have to prove they're trustworthy first. Like, don't we enter into the relationship not trusting them, like
Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. What's that? Go ahead. I was just gonna, I was gonna ask about the connection between the two of you. How did you at the same time heal in that space? So Don, you were pushing like, not, I'm pushing might be a strong word, but you were advocating for it's accurate. I didn't wanna put that on you, but I wanted all Yeah, no, I totally get that.
So you're in this relationship, you're healing and you're together. How do you support each other in that, these moments where I know like a holiday comes up and you're intensely grieving over your past relationship or something happens, but you're also in this new relationship. How did you do that?
Yeah, my brain is going three different directions, but ultimately what, you know, we had to do was accept that because we were moving together so quickly in the midst of Dior of divorce and grief, that there had to be, we were gonna be facing you know, More intensity at quicker paces buttons would [00:29:00] get pushed, more fears would come up more than if we had taken a longer process.
Mm-hmm. We kind of had to accept that. And also because of that, we had to come up with some agreements that, you know, I'm grieving the person that broke your marriage up. I'm grieving your enemy, you know? Mm-hmm. Which kinda added an element to it. Yeah. But I always tried to create space for us where Ash could always.
Talk about her ex, like if there was a moment she missed her, if there's a moment that she wanted to reminisce about, we would offer that to each other. And we would ask like, are you okay if I have this? I had this memory or a day of grief. You hit these pockets. Mm-hmm. Right? And we set up these agreements to help each other grieve.
The first time we had sex, I, I found myself like really being shocked at the grief that came up. My body was catching up with my head, kind of, you know? Mm-hmm. And there were space for it. Like Ash [00:30:00] was like caring and not jealous or angry. Like, don't talk about, you know, we work with a lot of couples and that's something that I never can understand when someone's like, don't talk about your ex, or don't talk about your past.
But we created space for each other to be in the grief. And then, you know, I'm, I'm trained in a science-based approach to couples therapy, so I know that. You don't have to be secure to be in a secure relationship. Right. We can actually heal better and quicker the part of our brain that's been traumatized, that can be anxious or avoidant within a primary relationship.
And so creating safety between the two of us was the quickest way to start moving towards that security. Mm-hmm. I'm saying a lot. Do you wanna add anything with all this? Oh, you're saying like really wonderful things. Yeah. I, I would say, yeah, we, we really, we really did give each other the space to grieve.
Mm-hmm. And we were very, I mean, we were open, direct, honest about everything that was [00:31:00] coming up and mm-hmm. We also asked of one another, if you feel like you're not in a space to like. To hear this right now, which we would check in if something came up, Hey, are you in a place where you can hear this?
Mm-hmm. I wanna share this with you, and if you're not, let me know. Right. Like, that's okay. Mm-hmm. I don't know that has ever happened though. You've always, sometimes we'll get into it, like we been get, like can wreck it wrapped up in the story and then we go on for too long. Yeah. And then I'm like, this need to slow down to kinda ourselves.
Yeah. But that was in the, in the beginning we were just overly processing. Mm-hmm. Thing. But the, the, the reason why I feel like I could step into relationship quicker with Ash was because she said, you said you know, I have my own joy, I have my own peace. I'm not coming to another person to get that back.
But she said, you turn the volume up to the joy. And so I didn't feel like responsible for her, like mm-hmm. And, and she would have to say, tell me like, Donna, I just need you to know I'm still [00:32:00] breathing. You know, I'm still very much in my grief. And so. You're kind of holding it in that way, just really gently.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I knew what it was like to be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't allow you to process the grief of an ex or last marriage. I experienced that when I left my ex-husband and entered into this relationship with my now ex-wife. There was a lot of energy around, like, don't talk about him.
Mm-hmm. And if you talk about him, you must still be into him. Want him miss him, which I did miss him. There were parts I missed. That was true. Mm-hmm. That's a part of human experience and attaching to people. But getting to really openly discuss and grieve with dawn in a safe way. I mean, I think that's what allowed me to, to process it all is.
Quickly as I have, which, I mean, I'm still, process [00:33:00] processing does not look like never. But yeah, it allowed me to really like, move through it and feel mm-hmm. Feel safe. Getting to have that, like I didn't have to erase a part of my past in order to have Yeah. You, or to mm-hmm. In order to get love. I didn't have to have, like, some part of me didn't exist.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I feel like I've been in both situations where I'm like, oh, I can't hear about your ex anymore. And we have kiddos in our relationship, so we have to talk to the other parents. We have both dads that are, they're there, they're not going away. But it is, can be difficult. So I appreciate that.
Like, give your space to hold each other in it. Give yourself space to, you know, put boundaries around it if it's too intense at the moment. But yeah. In, in setting up agreements that make you both feel safe mm-hmm. That serve the relationship. So what can we set up or establish that will remove all the threat or energy that's going into it without it?
Mm-hmm. So if you're, think of it like guardrails, it's keeping you safe. It's [00:34:00] like we made an agreement, like no reaching out to your ex unless we talk about it first. Mm-hmm. At the beginning there was a lot of interactions, you know, going through the divorce, separating things or, and then we ultimately came to a place where we decided we're gonna be a brick wall to them.
They will not have any access to us ever. Not through Venmo or, or Instagram. No, we're done. But we decided to do that to protect the relationship and it created security and then trust can start building off of that. Mm-hmm. So where most of your agreements in the place of like your relationship first over.
That one. But then, you know, allowing for the healing too. So like that agreement for example is like you're connected first before you reach out, you know? What would be some other examples in that too? Of agreements that we made for Yeah, agreements based, well, I guess I asked two questions there, didn't I?
It was mostly based on starting the agreements with like, your relationship first and understanding your healing and [00:35:00] connection in that space. Is that correct? I, I would say the agreements that we set up then, I mean, our agreements have shifted over time, right? The agreements we had in the first couple, we had in the first couple of months to help care for the threat that was very present in our lives at the time.
Look different now. Mm-hmm. But yeah. What were some of those agreements that we set up? I know part of it was if they reach out, we'll let the other know. Yeah. Right. If we wanna reach out, let the other know. Yeah. I, I think being like, Because we're different people and we respond differently to things.
Our perceived threat or whatever can create a perceived threat mattered. Like I had an old friend that came into town the day after Ash moved here, and she didn't know her and it was a long, best time friend with like, you know old previous feelings. Mm-hmm. And that created some fear, like, you know, all of a sudden.
And so what I wanted to [00:36:00] do was establish safety right away. And so we made an agreement like, okay, right now what we need to do is establish like we need to slow everything down. And so if this is gonna be scary for you in this moment, I care more about you in this moment than doing what I wanna do.
Thinking like long term wise. Yeah. So we just, like, there's all these little fires that could flare up because of the grief. Does that make sense? No, it does. Right. Make sense? Yeah. Yeah. That was just the way we cared for each other. Yeah. With mm-hmm. Like an outside relationship, like an agreement around Yeah.
That's outside relationship. Yeah. And that one felt, those can feel really big. I mean, right off the heels of, mm-hmm. Of divorce and of like betrayal and all this and that. Yeah. But what were some of the other agreements that we had? I'm trying to, I mean, agreements that have stuck with us, like we, well, yeah.
Our relationship is number one period. Yeah. We are gonna protect it in like we say, like in public and in private, like[00:37:00] We make decisions together that's just mm-hmm. How we function. Yeah. A big one that we do started Ben, and now is whenever there's a moment of your, you see your partner in distress or your relationship in distress, that's, that's it.
Pause the presses. This is what matters. I'm gonna care for this in a way that you feel that I show up for you and care for you and bring you relief. Mm-hmm. Pausing the presses in the sense that like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Like we're talking about. Mm-hmm. I don't know what we're gonna have for dinner that night and who's coming over.
Right. And you have a response come up, right. Yeah. That you feel it's always in the most inconvenient. It's always in the most convenient. You have a response, come up to it. Causing the presses is like, okay, we're no longer talking about our friends who are coming over or the dinner we're having. What's coming up in you right now?
What's, yeah. What's, what's bringing up this response? Yeah. Learning how to bring your partner back to a place of safety. In the moment mm-hmm. That there's stress. [00:38:00] That's something that we practice from the beginning to now. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. Does it work for, I'm thinking about, as you talk about you bring grief into the relationship, but you also could bring these toxic patterns that you have from your past relationship or things that maybe are habits that you didn't realize were bad habits or, or whatnot.
Do those type of agreements and this type of system work for that space too? And how do the two of you talk about those when they come up? Yeah. I mean, I would say one of, like, one of the patterns that came from my last relationship I guess it was more so what I experienced was like yelling, just getting really loud with one another.
And although we don't yell with each other Yeah, we don't do that. But that was an agreement that we had, like mm-hmm. We're not gonna yell. Right. We, we were not gonna engage in conversations together where we do yell. And if I have started to raise my tone, which I have Sure. I've started to raise my tone and Don let, Don lets me know, like, hey, noticing that you're raising your tone and I wanna listen to you.
[00:39:00] I can't, whenever you're raising your tone. Mm-hmm. I wanna have this conversation, but if we need to pause and come back, like, let's do that. Yeah. One thing in the beginning was that you did was she wouldn't tell me when she was frustrated with me. Like, it, it, I started picking it up like probably within the first few months of living together.
She, she would get like, kind of move around the house and get quiet. And I started realizing, oh, she's frustrated with me. Which is so cute. I just love So cute. Not cute. And I, I, so I pulled her over to me and I said, Hey, you are allowed to be upset with me. Yeah. And there's no consequences here. I wanna know what's going on in there.
And it was like, that was like scary for you to do, to like start like taking small risks and saying like, Hey, when you said that, that hurt my feelings. Yeah. Cause there wasn't space for that with, with L Yeah. No, there wasn't. Well, and also like, The passive aggressiveness, like Yeah, that's straight up [00:40:00] from my mom.
Like, yeah, our past relationships are not just marriage, but they're parents. Yes, she knows how to walk around a house and everybody knows what's up, but she's not saying it. And I say that childhood, that's funny's childhood. But yeah, in my last marriage, yeah. No, like there wasn't space for me to come forward and say, I'm upset about this.
This thing bothered me. Because that would lead to a, just a massive conflict. Mm-hmm. And it always, I use, I know it always is a big word, strong word to use, but regularly, if I were to bring something up, I would end up apologizing for it. Or. Not knowing if our relationship would last. Mm-hmm. So it was this perpetual anxiety around, I, I can't bring it up because yeah, it goes nowhere.
And I might lose the person that I love if I do. Right. And so in this new space, you have to trust the safety and security of each other. And over time I don't Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's a huge risk. But those moments, those moments, [00:41:00] Tara, when you are triggered or you are scared and it's met with relief or connection or safety, that's what repairs the brain.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. When we, when we've looked at this and studied this, those moments are the most critical. And first attachment styles aren't personalities. Right. So yeah, you, you two, you and your partner can move into secure. And in those moments when I'm like caring for like, Hey, you don't have to be upset, or you don't have to be afraid to share with me, that's repairing this belief that she had, like, oh, if I share, then this will happen.
Mm-hmm. Which creates disconnection. Like how many people sweep things under the rug Cause they're afraid. Right. Of, you know, but those moments are huge. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I always like to say your body is like, it's building up receipts, right? Mm-hmm. New receipts. We have all these receipts on what we've experienced and what we've known as.
And so to be able to move toward a secure functioning relationship, you need to build up new receipts, right? Mm-hmm. New. [00:42:00] Mm-hmm. New things, new memories to look back on and within your own body and your own. Mm-hmm. Recall to know, okay, that's safe. Yeah. This person is safe at least. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it is possible for your brain to, to shift and yes, relearn, right?
You don't have to ever be stuck in that. And maybe a rollercoaster, right? Like it gets further and further away how much I'm triggered by something or whatever. But yeah, that's why it's so important that you pick a partner that is safe. Like, you're not gonna find someone who's perfectly healed or perfectly secure, right?
Mm-hmm. But you can do it as a couple. And so it's so important. So many people will just repeat the same pattern and find the familiar. Well, and the familiar can feel safe. Yeah. Right, right. Mm-hmm. Cause it's familiar, our system and our body knows what it's like, and so we're drawn to it. So there can be this false sense of security.
Mm-hmm. Right. That, oh, I feel like there's a spark here and this feels so, this feels like home. Mm-hmm. This person when in reality Right. It's just a reflection of your early [00:43:00] attachment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily that it's a healthy relationship. Yeah. Can you, I know I'm asking for a quick explanation of what attachment styles is, but what's not really a quick, it's not possible to quickly explain it, but you've mentioned attachment styles a couple of times.
Do you think you can, can you explain a little bit the basics of what attachment styles are and why they're important in your healing and understanding of security and connection? Yeah. Well, I mean, attachment starts. We come out attached, we come out of the womb attached. We are 25% wired for our attachment just coming out of the womb.
And then we are 70% wired. I believe it's by the time we're three years old. And so by the time you're three years old, we can predict with 70% certainty what your attachment style will be like. Anxious, avoidant, secure. There are other ones. Yeah, there are other ones too. But yeah, and it's how we get our, how we get our needs met in childhood when we are a child.[00:44:00]
We're wired to attach for our survival because, well, I think the important thing is with what you're saying is we're born into dependency. Yes. We can't take care of ourself from like basic needs like food, shelter, water. Yeah. Apart from touch, comfort, safety, eye contact. Well, and even think about like how old you were when you got to the point where you could meet those needs for yourself.
Like, yep. I'm ready to go out on my own and provide shelter, food, and water. Like I still strong. Yes. What age is that? 24, 38. I'm getting there. Yeah. And so the attachment we're, we're biologically wired to attach, to keep us alive. Mm-hmm. And so we developed this attachment based on how our needs were or were not being met as children.
And as we evolve into adults, right. We seek out partners. It's kind of like we, we feel drawn to partners. Mm-hmm. We feel like is the puzzle piece that we, this is a reflection of the love [00:45:00] that we knew when we were younger. Mm-hmm. Right? So maybe we had a parent who was not there for us consistently, and we had to work really, really hard for their attention and for their love, for their reflection just to look at us, right?
Mm-hmm. And so we respond the same way in relationship as we get older. And so something in our system tells us, oh, this is familiar, the fact that I have to seek out your love. Right? You're emotionally unavailable. Mm-hmm. That to me, that reads as love because it's what I know. And so we can end up in these relationships where, for this example, we are anxiously attached, right?
Mm-hmm. And so that's kind of like how we get there. Yeah. I think, you know you know, primary primary partners or primary attachments. Now it, it goes between parent and partner. You know, when I, when I see you as permanent, that's when I've attached, when now you're my permanent partner. And that's when we start getting triggered.
Like most people [00:46:00] think, you know, once I get married or move in, or we may get a puppy together, we'll feel more secure. And in reality we'll start to get more activated. Cause now I'm attached and those things will come to life. Well, and there's more to lose. Oh, for sure. Yeah. We start like, let's move in together, let's get a dog together.
Now it gets scarier and scarier because there's more on the table. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can remember this is just bringing up a story and talking about my relationship, but we were, we were at our we had our second anniversary trip and we had an amazing time and we felt secure and attached and talked a lot about what we wanted for our futures.
And then we got home and I feel like the next week after that, we were so activated and triggered that we had like the most intense week after, after a trip. And I could see those patterns coming over time, you know, we decided to move in together. It got more intense, you know? Yeah, it is. Yeah. It does play out.
Yeah. Really does. Yeah. The beautiful thing is, You don't have to stay anxious. You don't, you're not born avoidant, you know? [00:47:00] Right. So you can, this is the perfect place because our brain is so beautifully pliable, you can actually repair that together. And that's the work that we do is we teach queer couples how to move from secure, anxious into in, or avoidant, anxious, et cetera, into secure.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Practicing certain skills in those moments that you're triggered. Yeah. Is there different types of support in secure responses, repair moments that each attachment style needs? So if I'm avoidant, you know, what things might I, yeah. Could you give a few examples so we can talk about anxious and avoidant?
Is there other, oh, that's, there's disorganized, right. We could talk about Yeah. As well. That's a whole other story, right? Yeah. So if we're talking about anxious and avoidant, what are the, some of the supports they need for healing? That. I mean, we do a 10 week course to cover all this, but Yeah, sure. Could you give us a couple examples?
Yeah. [00:48:00] Well, I mean, because they're different, they're different wounds, like just an avoidant, which we also call an island. They never had someone come find them. They never, they don't have an expectation. They learn how to survive on their own. Mm-hmm. So, I, I'm identify more as a avoidant and you can have parts of both, you know I can't be anxious at times, but avoidant Ash we tell couples like, you have to become an expert on your partner.
Mm-hmm. I want you to study your partner. Like they're, you know, you're getting a degree in them. Yeah. And so she's had to learn how to help me in the moments that I'm being avoidant, that button is getting pushed and I will shut down quickly. I've had to, my whole life I learned how to recover by myself.
I know how to do it now, but I will, that threatens the security of the relationship if I keep doing that. Mm-hmm. And so Ash has learned to reach me as an avoidant. So one thing an avoidant hates is being intruded upon or interrupted. If [00:49:00] I'm reading a book and she's like, Hey, did you see the bird outside?
Like that for some reason is really hard. And it if my independence is threatened. Mm-hmm. So she is learned how to approach it in a way that she can have access to me without me feeling like I'm on my own or what, let me answer this question better if I shut down as an avoidant. Ash has learned to say less words at that time.
Because if I shut down, that could scare her, right? Mm-hmm. The more distant I become, because remember anxious partners, they had access to comfort and touch at times and other times not right. They experienced it and sometimes their par parent was right in front of them, but they couldn't access them.
Mm-hmm. So that's playing out in that moment. And that could be emotional or physical, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's not just, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if she can help me come back, if I shut down by saying less words, maybe lead with touch offering space, whatever that is, without judgment or threat mm-hmm. I can [00:50:00] come back faster.
Mm-hmm. And then if anything came up in between that interaction, she can tell me like, Hey, I really scares me when you shut down like that. What's that like for you? Where do you go? Mm-hmm. And so with an anxious partner, what would you say that you do for me? Yeah. One big thing is whenever we do talk, like if we're moving into conflict, Dawn will make sure that you are not standing in front of me.
Right. You'll step to the side to make sure that I have plenty of space, I don't feel trapped where I am. Mm-hmm. Which I think that's more so a part of my own personal history rather than so much anxious. But trying to think. I'll make sure the worst anxious partners can tend to think worst case scenario.
Yes. And so Dawn, what she'll do is kind of jump ahead, like, Hey, we're okay. Right? I just wanna be able to talk about this with you. Mm-hmm. Our relationship is, okay, this is our relationship is okay. She'll usually lead with that. We're okay, like, I just wanna talk about this. Mm-hmm. Which then puts my threat system to rest a little bit more.[00:51:00]
Yeah. But the big thing between, you know, when it comes to avoidant or anxious attachment, we're all trying to get the same thing, or we wanna feel safe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's, that's what we, the need we want met is to feel safe. We just get to it in different ways. Right. I get to it. Or someone who is more anxiously attached, they believe that, okay, if I can just keep you within close proximity, I'll be safe.
Right. Not safe out here on my own. And for you as more of an avoidant attach, it's, I get my safety by being alone, right? Mm-hmm. And getting my distance from other people who I have learned throughout my history aren't safe. Yeah. And so, yeah, we have a little bit of, you're more, you're more islandy. I can be like between both.
I think you probably are between both islandy than, than, than anxious. I was married to an anxious partner and that that was Oh, that was different. But yeah, learning how to respond to your partner's attachment style in a way that you're like, you have to think pro self. Like if I [00:52:00] can figure out how to get her to feel safe in this moment and stop spinning with fear, that's actually gonna benefit me.
Mm-hmm. So when you turn on each other and you're like, what? You're, you're too much? Or Why are you like this? And, or don't we storm off? Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's making my life more difficult. Yeah. It, it's actually, it's self-care to learn how to care for your partner. Mm. Yeah. That in and of itself is self-care.
Yeah. We can talk about this all day long. Yeah. Yeah. Scratching the surface. I know. Yes. We can only scratch the surface. We only have so much time together. But I guess what I'm hearing you say is it's important to understand your attachment style, especially when you're healing, because when your trigger moments come up, you know, being able to understand where they come from is important, and you should do that with your therapist or through a course like you have.
But understanding what those are is really important. And then understanding what your partners is is important for building security and for being able to build this safe space between the two of you so you can, [00:53:00] you know, connect on a better level, whether that's for yourself or for your partnership or.
Yeah, I think think that like, I think, you know, when we're dating each other, we're asking each other like, you know, what's your favorite color? And tell me about your childhood pet and stuff. And the first, when I have a kickoff call with a couple, you'll say, I don't know if that's what lesbians talk about.
That's true. There's not a lot of talking probably. Yeah. Well, we go deep. That's fair. We go, we go really deep, really fast. Yeah. Yeah. Were like, tell me everything. Tell me when you hurt the most. Like, that's so true. I wanna, what was it like? Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, in the first session with a couple, I'll ask them to introduce each other to me.
Like, tell me like what, like what do you think I should know about them? Mm-hmm. Cause I'm trying to figure out how well they know each other. And we have to know our partner's history. We have to know like you know, when they get upset that you're late. Why is [00:54:00] that so loaded for them? Mm-hmm. And I wanna know how well they know that.
Because if, if you don't understand where it's coming from you, you can't care for it. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's so beautiful to think about that space, to be able to, you know, to be able to support each other and, you know, find that safe space through the hardest moments. It really is. Yeah. It really is.
Yeah. It can throw you off like right within the first, like when couples start using this practice, we teach them. They're like, they don't know how to respond. Like when their partner actually uses the skill. Yeah. In role. They're used to something totally opposite. It's like, like, I feel frozen. Like, mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, and is it safe to feel this? Like, is it safe to feel this is ok. Can I trust this? Yeah. Yeah. Will this last? Will it last? So, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a big question. But if you keep doing it and it does last, it's good, but if it doesn't, [00:55:00] you need to get outta there. Well, it's another whole nother podcast too.
Flags and where to go. Okay. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So I don't know if there's a way to really wrap it up. I'm sure you have lots of important, important things we all need to keep in mind, but if you were able to today, at top of mind, tell all the listeners like what is something that's the most important for you to really focus on after your breakup, after your divorce, and as you're trying to heal and rebuild, what might you say to them?
I think that we're raised, a lot of us are raised to appear a certain way. I would say, my lesson was like, don't be afraid to make a mess. Mm-hmm. There's so much judgment, like, oh, you're moving too fast, or you just got divorced, or you're doing what now? Like, there's so much judgment in it. I, at times we can put even put on ourself.
But yeah, I would say [00:56:00] like, don't be afraid to mess things up and, you know. Mm-hmm. Don't be afraid to mess things up. Yeah. I would say give yourself space. Yeah. Like if you are moving through a divorce and separation and you're in the thick of that healing, give yourself the space to feel what's coming up and get yourself as many resources as you can.
Resources being things that help you feel a little more present. Things that Things that can bring you a little bit of ease. Right. And a sense of safety that whatever feels safe for you. I would, that's what I want you to reach out to. Like, okay, this brings a little bit of calm to my system rather than this.
Yeah. Overwhelmed free fall. That can often be the experience, but, mm-hmm. Yeah. It seems like in both of those, in both those cases, whether you're giving yourself permission to be messy or to take space, it's also like, be selfish and take what you need in that space. I'm, that's what I'm hearing. But maybe it's because I'm like [00:57:00] learning how to be selfish a little bit more, that I'll feel selfish to take your own space.
Yeah. Process all in of itself. Yeah. We make these so many decisions based upon how other people will feel about it. Yeah. Are you gonna be uncomfortable? Okay. I'll, I'll wait. You know, or I, you know, or, or we'll hide. We'll just keep it a secret then, and then we can't be fully transparent, but, mm-hmm.
Yeah, you gotta decide what's right for you. There's no book on this. No. I wish there was. Yeah. Would be nice. That's why we have the Queer Divorce Club. That's why we have yeah. Work like yours. Can you tell us where listeners can find you all online? Yeah, we're on TikTok am on Instagram. It's Ash.
Is it Ash and Don Noble? I think so, yeah. And TikTok is like queer couples, experts. Yeah. Then we have a podcast called Queer Couples Conversations. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well thank you so much for [00:58:00] giving me this time today. And I, yeah, I feel like we could have talked forever. I'm trying to have so many questions.
So good. So everybody should find you, find your work on TikTok, find your podcast because it's a lot of good stuff. Good stuff that we really need. Thanks for having us on. We've, I really enjoyed this conversation. Yeah. It's really been a pleasure to get to sit and hang out with you for a bit. Yeah.
Yeah. It's been lovely. Thank you so very much.