Episode 9: Ethan Philbrick, Finding Community and Queer Divorce Culture

In this episode, Tera had the privilege of chatting with the talented Ethan Philbrick, a cellist, artist, and writer. Ethan shares his own heartfelt divorce story and sheds light on his inspiring initiative, The Gay Divorcees, a musical platform created to honor the narratives of queer divorcees.

Together, we explore the culture surrounding queer divorce and the significance of its relatively short history in our country. Delving into the importance of this history, we reflect on its impact on divorcees and the expectations they may face when choosing to separate.

Join us as we celebrate the power of making the choice to get divorced, and the transformative effect it can have on shaping dynamic individuals.

Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.

Ethan Philbrick

Ethan Philbrick (he/him) is a cellist, artist, and writer. He holds a PhD in performance studies from New York University and has taught at Pratt Institute, Muhlenberg College, and New York University. His book, Group Works: Art, Politics, and Collective Ambivalence, was recently published by Fordham University Press.

You can find Ethan on Instagram @ethanphilbrick, at ethanphilbrick.com, and at divorcee.gay.


Show Transcript

[00:00:00] All right, Ethan, welcome to the Queer Divorce Club. Thank you. I'm a proud, proud member. Proud to be a divorcee. Yay. I love, I love adding new members and finding new members. 'cause there's so many of us that are just like hiding in the. And the shadows, I guess. Totally, totally, totally. Can you give us a little background on your history with divorce and Yeah.

Gay divorce in general, I guess. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well I was, I got divorced from my ex-husband in 2016. So a little while ago now we had been married in 2008. I like joke that I was a child bride at our wedding, you know, like it was, but I, I was like 22. It was right outta college. It was like, literally like two weeks after I graduated college.

You know, a lot of, you know, Now, you know, some of those conditions of how the [00:01:00] relationship started really sort of announced themselves that some of the flags for how the relationship ended too. You know, it was like this, like I was, you know, finishing college, had sort of no idea how to make a life here.

Is this person promising some kind of stability inside of that and like, you know, really couldn't see the outside of that or like really like, See what, you know, sort of individuate and be like, what do I, what am I doing? You know, like I was wanting to be an artist. There was no frame for that, no world for that.

And so then here was this like relationship that could create the ground or something, you know, so like whatever. But you know, we were married really young and then, yeah, divorced 2016. And no, I think like. I mean, I'm like really excited to be on this podcast and to like hear about this podcast in general.

And that's because like, you know, I was like gay, married early in the [00:02:00] possibility of gay marriage, you know? Mm-hmm. And so then also, Gay, divorced early-ish in the like realm of that relation happening, you know, like that. Mm-hmm. Like both the institution of marriage and the dissolution of marriage, like for queer people was like all sort of new and so like, you know, whatever.

I was like inside the marriage, we were in this like sort of chaotic. Polyamorous open marriage the whole time. I was like always having a complicated relationship to marriage itself. You know, like had a critique of marriage as a conservative institution, you know, but I was in it, you know, it was all this like, I'm married, I'm not, whatever, you know, like stuff inside of it.

But then when divorce happened, like when I wanted to get out of the relationship and end it. The marriage became really real, and I like really, like, and divorce became actually like a really hard thing to achieve, you know, like, you know, like, [00:03:00] and so, and in that moment I was like, whoa, I have no, you know, I haven't had models for marriage, but I really don't have models for divorce within queer community.

You know, like, and I don't know anybody who has, you know, like, so I'm, it's really nice. You're doing podcast, you know, like, like if only we had a podcast to listen to, you know, what, however many years ago that is now, seven years ago, you know, like to like yeah, because it felt really isolating too. I was like, yeah.

Or like, you know divorce divorces already can be a sort of isolating thing, but it was also just like symbolically I, you know, I wasn't like, yeah, there's all these narratives of like what it means to get divorced as a queer person. And it was like, And so I ended up, yeah, like really showing up more in like straight people narratives about divorce, you know?

And that was helpful. That's where I could find it, you know, and I was, and I felt like a lot of actually overlap with those, you know, like, but this relationship that had felt so queer, so different [00:04:00] inside of it. Then the divorce, I was like, oh no. I'm like, we're like, A straight couple getting divorced right now.

You're like regular married when you have to actually legally get divorced. I know. It's wild, right? It's wild. Do you, do you feel like since then there's been more people getting divorced or your community's grown at all? Like how has that shifted for you over the last seven years? Yeah. Well, I like, I mean, I often joke that I like divorce.

Divorce days are my like favorite people. Like I love, I do feel like an immediate like, sort of like, hey, like, yeah, we. Did a thing that we really needed to end and we like figured out how to, like, decide to end something. Mm-hmm. You know, for our, we like chose our flourishing in some way or figured it out, you know, and like got out of something.

And so I love divorcees in general. So I, I do, I like meet them a lot. I'm, yeah. And, and I like find the divorce [00:05:00] phase. But yeah. And then I think like, I mean, this is maybe jumping forward a little bit, but like my desire to make this sort of, of online performance series of songs with and form a band called the Gay Divorcees during the pandemic, you know, during the beginning moments of the pandemic that, you know, continues its own ways, but My impulse to do that was to like, I wanted to like build community around queer experiences of queer divorce.

Yeah. Like, it was like this thing that I was doing and, you know, talking to friends about, you know, like, and you know, living out. But, but like, I wasn't having a lot of like, shared experiences of some of these really weird things of like early years of gay marriage and divorce, you know? Mm-hmm. Like so I decided to make this.

Peace and form this band out of that desire for [00:06:00] community. Yeah. So, so post, you know, like, and this was all in fall of 2020, you know, so it was like, you know, the the conditions of the pan pandemic had gotten normalized a little bit, but they were like also still super intense. So it was all remote, all this stuff.

But we like had this like, I like gathered this new community of. Queer divorcees to Yeah. Talk. Yeah. Do you think that so was everybody in the band has been divorced or everybody that in the Yeah. Yeah. The constraint for me, reaching out to people if, to see if they wanted to join this band was like, yeah, the requirements were like that.

You had some relationship to art making already, you know, you have some like, sort of creative practice already. Didn't have to be music. In fact, it was sort of fun if you were also like an amateur inside of music, but, and pretty much all of everybody in it, like had some relationship to like, you know, writing a [00:07:00] song or something, but, but not necessarily professionalized or whatever.

So yeah, so like some kind of creative practice, maybe some musical leanings. And then yeah, then the requirement was that you had to, at the moment of engaging in marriage, That was like, made possible by the passing of gay marriage, you know, like the main, the legalization of gay marriage. Mm-hmm. So it, it was like people's then relationships to the category of like gay marriage, you know, like was more complicated.

Like, because like. These relationships. Then also like, you know, like people's own relationships to gendered identity became that, like what was once gay marriage was then also straight marriage. You know, like, like, it's like, it was not like because of people's like experience of transness and how the state or recognizes, you know, like what was a gay and what was a straight marriage or whatever, you know, like, so so, but the, the thing was that like when you got married, it [00:08:00] was like, Of like so, so called.

Legalization of gay marriage. Yeah. And got legally divorced at some point. So that was the requirement. And so I just like, and it came about, I was just sort of like, I got this it, the idea for the piece didn't actually totally come from me. It was this art institution, the Skirball Center at at. That's housed at n NYU in New York.

The curator there, this guy named Jay Wegman found out I was, was working with me on this other musical piece that I was writing, found out that I was a divorcee and got super into that. Like, what is that? You know, he is like cis gay guy of like a, just like a little bit older than me, you know? But like the little micro generational difference was like, mm-hmm.

Was really like, whoa, what does it mean to be a queer divorcee? And was super into it. It was like, I want a piece about this. And I think he was imagining some kind of first person narrative, like [00:09:00] tell all theatrical piece maybe with music about my experience. And I was like, not so into that. I was like, I don't want to like.

Just like do this sort of confessional narrative about it. Also, I think he had this like understanding that it'd be sort of like funny maybe, and for me, my like a lot of like the hijinks of my marriage were funny, but the divorce wasn't funny. It was a lot of like just reckoning with like the traumatic experiences inside the relationship, reckoning with like all the like really awful shit that went down in the.

Process of getting out of the relationship, you know, like just like, mm-hmm. It wasn't like a like cute, funny, conceptual piece for me. It was like, just like real hard experiences. Yeah. So I was like, I don't wanna do that. But he like still had this commission money for me and I was like, I need money. So like, what can I do?

And so then this idea of like, no, I don't want to just like tell my story 'cause it's like [00:10:00] still, it's still ongoing. It sucks, you know, like whatever. But I do want like, To be able to spend time with other queer divorcees and like share stories, get to know each other, you know, like really be together and maybe like do some shit together.

So that's how the project was born. I like had this lump of cash from an institution. It actually, which I got the winter of 2020. It was initially gonna be like a big live performance. And then the pandemic happened and we still had the money. So I was like, We're all at home, like, let's still do something.

Yeah. And so we started gathering remotely, regularly, and I sort of devised this process for us where we would like share talk and then like mirror back for each other things we had said and like find little like images or language or emotional states or little like weird genre play things or something that were like coming up in the conversations.

And then I'd be like, okay, next [00:11:00] week we're gonna get together again. Everybody like. Bring in a melody. Mm-hmm. From somebody else's conversation or you know, like we would start to like, bring in little bits of songs and then and then so that like built into these songs, you know, I be like, started and we'd like, yeah.

I am so intrigued by the way this came together. I mean, I think I'm not surprised as a queer divorce a myself, like understanding the cultural difference around. What it's like to be divorced and queer and how that works in our world. And so coming together in a community makes so much sense. So I'm, you know, I'm seeing that in the work that you did.

I'm also so intrigued by how you mentioned that the person that funded your project was also a gay man. Is that correct? Yeah. And, but he didn't, he didn't understand the idea of. Gay divorce, was he, you know, what's the culture shift between like the, I don't know, my kids would say the OG gay. Right. And the new culture of like being able to legally get divorced versus, yeah.

Yeah. What's the [00:12:00] difference there? Well, I think there's like,

I don't know. I feel like he, it's like he under, he understood it, but It was just sort of like, thought the whole thing was like salacious and fun. Mm-hmm. You know, the whole thing was sort of like held more lightly or something. And, and for me it was like

yeah, it was like, it's like it's, yeah, there's like lots of stuff there, but it's not like me or something, you know? But I think like, but the, like some of the culture shift stuff, I was like, hmm.

Well, yeah, there's this really complicated like really condensed timeline around the normalization of like queer intimacy within the eyes of the state, like, and like sort of queer assimilationist politics of the nineties and early two thousands. Like it's just actually so condensed, you know, like, so the [00:13:00] like, The, the sort of move from like, you know, early nineties queer politics to like, you know, early two thousands, like, you know, where the like big issue for like mainstream national level gay stuff suddenly became just legal recognition of marriage, you know?

Mm-hmm. That is like, it's actually so fast and, and, and sort of like, Yeah, like vertigo inducing, how much change quickly around on a lot of different levels too. Like it's both the like emergence of like, Assimilation focused national gay politics movement. That was not like, we want to like change how intimacy works.

It's like, no, we wanna like get recognition for gay marriage. You know, like that stuff. Mm-hmm. So there's all this generational like sort of like whiplash around [00:14:00] that I feel like. That goes in a lot of directions. There's like older radical queers who are like, why did you ever even want marriage? Yeah.

Like, so then they are sort of like funny about divorce too. They're like, what were you even doing getting married? Mm-hmm. Like didn't you know this whole institution was bankrupt? And then there are more like sort of mainstream older. Queers that are like, we fought for marriage. How dare you fuck it up and get divorced.

You know? Right, right. You know, like, this was what we fought for. Don't you just want it, you know, or something. And like, so from both directions, it's sort of a weird experience. Mm-hmm. And like, and so then there was, for people on the project, we were like all sort of like, yeah, like. Our thirties ish. I think that's true.

Yeah. Like sort of maybe like late twenties to early forties. And so I think we like had this sort of, it was also this specific generational experience of like gay, you know, like [00:15:00] as we were coming into adulthood, gay marriage was legalized in the states and or in some states or whatever. That was like on the mm-hmm.

You know, in the culture that was happening. We had like, so it was like sort of an option bureaucratically and inside of our own fantasies about what it meant to be in a relationship, you know, like it was there. Mm-hmm. And we could have our weird, complicated relationship. Like lots of people in the project were ambivalent about marriage when they got married, where like, you know, like, oh, I get it.

I'm sort of like selling out into heteronormativity or whatever. But like, I want it or something, you know, like there was a lot of that within the project, you know, people who had that experience. But then, you know, did it either for like immigration stuff, you know, like a bunch of people in the project.

It was like, it was also like in relation to citizenship, you know, and like, or in relation to like, Getting some more love from their parents, you know, like mm-hmm. Or support for their relationship, for their [00:16:00] parent. You know, it was like, it was about compromises already for a lot of people. But then, you know, like the sort of moment of needing to leave the relationship was like where those like compromises became really explicit and it was like, I actually need to get out of this.

So, I don't know. There was a, there was a moment we did, like, after the project went, Got online, you know, and, and these songs started circulating over the toll-free number in winter of 2021. You know, February, like Valentine's Day, 2021. We had this little like, online panel of a bunch of like queer theorists.

Like responding to the project and thinking about some of these things about like what is, you know, queer divorce, what is this like, sort of, yeah. Like what is the idea of gay marriage this long in, you know, stuff like that. And there's a really wonderful queer theorist named Elizabeth Freeman who in that event had this sort of like sort of spicy moment where she was like, [00:17:00] this whole project is like a bunch of young queers with starter marriages.

Or something, you know, she's like this, like, none of you have kids or property. So like this whole relation to divorce, I like, I don't even, I don't, don't even know, like, and she's like a divorcee herself and so was really who, when in her marriage had kids, had a kid also. You know, purchase property, you know, like, and so then was in the like more difficult property, parent co-parenting, you know, like, like divorce that, you know, like has to be then lived in relation to someone.

You know, like the things where, where it's true that everybody in this project didn't have kids. Maybe had some kind of property really, you know, like that could have been a thing. But like, it just turned out that like none of us had kids, so we weren't in some kind of like ongoing, you know, co-parenting with ex situation.

And Elizabeth Freeman at that time was like, you're not even, this isn't even count. The really great [00:18:00] course is when you have to actually live on inside the break. You know, like you have to actually like keep going, figure out how to relate to the person, you know, all that stuff. But aren't you still doing that, even if you don't have kids?

Like I'm, that was our, we were not legitimate. No. Yeah. Like, like we're doing that too, you know, like, or whatever. You're having to figure that out, you know, like, yeah. But that was a little mini generational thing too. Yeah, yeah. You know, this sort of like what constitutes a true breakup or something, whatever.

But it was, it was a funny little moment around the project. But yeah, it seems like there's a lot of generational issues and also a lot of this like heteronormative cultural ideas that are put on the way queer divorce works. And I know, like you were saying earlier, it does make sense that It's institutionalized now, so that marriage is equal between a queer couple and a straight couple.

I mean, there were queer couples that were married before. Don't tell the state [00:19:00] that was legit, but we were still queer people. Yeah, but they, it's so seeing, hearing a lot of those, like cultural practices put under, underneath what you're saying too, like getting, having to get married because you're You're more legitimized that way.

I mean, I feel I could feel that in my current relationship, you know, I have a new partner, do will my family see me in the same way if I'm not married? You know? Is there there's also this idea that you brought up that seeing it as a fun thing. It's kind of like if you're queer and you're married, you're not.

Doing it legitimately, you're just like, it's just for fun and it's just like, yeah, getting divorced is hilarious. Like willing, it's not Will and Grace day to day. Like we're real people that are reckoning with this like, intense failure of relationship and grief. Yeah. On the other side. I see. I like, I get that a lot too from my family is like, because I was in a straight marriage before I came out before I got divorced, that because I'm [00:20:00] choosing.

Queer divorce because I'm choosing myself and coming out and doing this new relationship that somehow I'm stronger and better at like at life. Like I don't need any help because I'm in this space where I know myself, like whatever. It's all the same. Right? Like this, you experience the same type of grief and intensity and like you said, reckoning around your relationship separation.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, that was my little, like, soapbox, like, ah, I know what you're saying. And I call someone that soap, like the, like, you know, and I, and I still experience this happening with friends and it can really be like, careful, or like I can, like my little flags go up or something in a low key way that I don't usually communicate.

But, but like when somebody is relating to the institution of marriage, like sort of ironically, or with some kind of like, Humorous distance or something. [00:21:00] I get that's like a way of managing their own ambivalence about a relation, you know, like I, I read it as, you know. Mm-hmm. Like this, like, yeah, we're married, I don't know, but marriage is fake, you know, whatever.

It's like Sure. Yeah. Like it's an abstract state institution that isn't the actual inside of your relationship, but also like, You're entering into a like different category of citizenship and legal, you know, like you're in, and like if you want to get out of it, you're gonna have to do a actually really hard thing that's actually expensive.

Like it's so easy to get married and it's actually the state makes it so hard to get divorced and like all this stuff. And I, and so sometimes when somebody is like sort of. Being flip about their own ambivalence around it and being like, we're getting married, but like it's just a party or whatever. I can be a little bit like are you okay?

You know, you know, like, like, where's the ground here? Like, what do you need? Mm-hmm. Like, [00:22:00] Do you really wanna do the, like, is this this way to sort of deflect some like other kind of ambivalence or something inside this relationship? Whatever. Like, so I like, yeah. I like talk about like, I like yeah. Like that's like a thing I complain about is like when somebody like, has some kind of weird disavow ironic relationship to marriage itself.

I'm like, no, no. Like, either do it or don't, you know, like, like, you know, like, want it or not, you know, because eventually if you don't want it, you're really gonna have to like, yeah, get out. You know, like, so whatever. But that, that's, yeah, it's a serious commitment no matter what legally. I mean, I. Yeah, it's not easy.

And then you're committing to each other, committing to the, this culture of being a gay couple who, who is married and like all of these. We also have these other mountain. We're putting a lot of mountains on it. Yeah. Too at the same time. Geez. Yeah. Oh totally. So much getting married and divorced. Yikes.

Okay.[00:23:00] Can you go back to, I'm just thinking about all the people you brought together to make the music and the, the gay divorcees. Did you, as you were talking about divorce, like what are some of the major themes that came up and that you connected on as you created the music? Yeah. Well, I wanna, I wanna shout out the members of the band a little bit because it was, please, it did come out from like, the, like, specificity of these people too.

You know, like was like, not. We like stayed, we tried to stay really close to like, the concreteness of our stuff and our stories. And so so the, there were

I just wanna make, yeah. Okay. I, I, how many, I need to remember how to count. 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9. Right there, sort of nine of us gathered around this project and And all had, you know, there was the Venn diagrams did, there was lots of sort of overlap and you know, but then also really distinct [00:24:00] things. And so we tried to like, Not come towards a unified experience of divorce.

Mm-hmm. But like, gather what's shared, but also let it keep spreading out into specificity. And so like, so the nine people is Robbie Acklin, really amazing visual artist, photographer, and then also singer, you know, this what he is bring to it. Lauren Baxt, who's a really wonderful writer and choreographer and dancer.

Lauren Dio, who is probably the like Mo, like is like, With me, the like person who is professionally musician, like Lauren has this amazing band project called The Warriors, who's like, just like, it's a great sort of UNK queer band. I actually don't, I'm bad at genre stuff. I don't know if they would be down with me saying post punk, but whatever.

Listen. And so like, so Lauren was bringing like a lot of like, I write songs already energy too. So it's like really in that mode. Then Paul Lago is this [00:25:00] amazing poet. Joshua Thomas Lieberman is the painter and like video artist who is doing that kind of stuff with us. And then Iita Sege is wonderful.

Performance artist, writer, Julia Steinman's, like scholar as well as performance artist, music maker, and Ashton Young writer, tarot reader, mystic, queer, mystic and songwriter. And so, so as the nine of us gathering and like Yeah, like we had, like, yeah, there's some of the themes that we've been talking about, you know, like we're emerging between us, you know, it's some of this like sort of like,

Yeah, like reckoning with the speed of the US state's, like absorption of the possibility of queer marriage. You know, like through like being sort of like, whoa, these, you know, some, you know, living in a heteronormative world, our relationship to like, [00:26:00] Having an intimate partner felt sort of impossible in our childhoods or something.

And then we had this experience of like mainstream culture saying, yeah, go for it. You know, and then like doing it, but it being ambivalent, it being hard, you know, like we have like some like overlap around that experience of like, you know, the sort of speed with which like gay marriage was legalized or something, you know, like that kind of thing.

And then like other things were like, you know, like bringing to language, abusive dynamics inside of queer relationships, you know, and like, and like getting through some of the smokescreen of idealization of like queerness queer relationships being somehow better than, you know, somehow more evolved than our straight relationships.

You know, like, because like, you know, like, because we're. We're choosing it or whatever, or like, we're like, we don't need to deal with the [00:27:00] baggage of heteronormativity, so we must not hurt each other in the same way or something. And like they're just being like some very real, like across a lot of relationships, you know, like some really intense like emotional abuse, physical abuse, like that be, that I think.

Not to speak for every, but I think people's, not everybody had experiences that within the group, you know, there's, it was, that was some of the things that were like only some people in that, but like some difficulty bringing those experiences to language because of some like desire to like be more, be in some kind of like ideal image of queer intimacy or something.

Mm-hmm. So that was like a thread and that was a thread that was really helpful for me to like hear people about. 'cause that was some of, you know, like some of those structures or some of my experience. So like, you know, hearing that, you know, like it was really, that was really powerful. And then I think big stuff around immigration and citizenship.

And state recognition and just like sort of bureaucratic need [00:28:00] for marriage, but then also then how shitty it got to try to figure out for, you know, like that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. And then some just like really big stuff around like what does it mean to leave something, you know, like to leave. And that's part of like the, it sort of became this bigger metaphor of like, how do you like try to loosen yourself out of something that like, You don't want anymore.

And like, you know, like, and how do we combat some sense of like, not being able to leave any of the things we've gotten into, you know, and being like, maybe that's why I love divorcees so much is that they like, have a sense of like, we don't have to, you know, like, like, yes, you know, we commit to things, but like also you get to like change mm-hmm.

And say No, and get out. You know, like, like that. Like there's this like fundamental really sort of big investment in like, you know, change is possible. Like you can get out of something that you don't want to be in anymore. Yeah. You get to, [00:29:00] divorce is a, a choice, but it's a choice that you're making outside of what's normal and Okay.

It's almost like. You know, coming out as a queer person, you know, you're, you're not choosing to be queer. You shouldn't have to choose, like the divorce shouldn't be this intense to choose, but you are having to choose yourself to be out, to be open. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. How did those conversations and that community change your perspective for yourself as you got divorced?

Like, how have you evolved through that? I think there was like, part of what was hard in the first moments of getting divorced for me was like encountering these narratives about like what the, an ideal divorce might look like or something. Or like what a mature relationship to leaving someone is, you know, like sort of like the conscious uncoupling narratives or something.

Yeah. [00:30:00] Like some kind of like idealized image of myself as like, being able to do that or something like, like some like really abstract narrative about like what a good divorce was becoming this like other level of punishing myself around it. Yeah. Thing of like, oh, well I'm not like getting conscious uncoupled because like I right now, like, I hate my ex and want nothing to do with him and like am experiencing how he's like relating to me as like super shitty and violent and like I just want.

To like cut off contact, you know, like, and need to cut off contact and need to like do the, you know, like, but then I had this like other shitty like level of like, shame about that because there are these narratives about like what a mature divorce looked like or something. Mm-hmm. And my own desire to be the ideal version of it was also wrapped up in queerness and this like, whatever, like all this stuff.

So I [00:31:00] had, by the time of doing this project, had already like, combated a lot of that stuff. Like, I like needed to like get on the other side of that, like no matter what, you know, like whatever. Mm-hmm. Like that was, I had already sort of gotten there, but then the project and hearing people's stories and hearing, you know, like how the, like actual stuff of divorce had worked for people, like really helped like ground some of that, like critique of those ideal narratives and like, you know, we had to be with like the material reality of.

The dissolution of these relationships. You know, like there was no, like, there is no like right way to do it. And in fact, some of those narratives about the right way to do it are like super, just like narratives of disavow of like injury and pain. Yeah. Like, it's like, like, like the version of what conscious uncoupling is, you know, it's like it imagines a relationship that like has.

Not always, you know, like a lot of them like have ways to like account for these things, but it, like, it imagines this thing that like, is not injurious, you [00:32:00] know? Mm-hmm. Like, it is just like, we're okay. You know, like just go and break up, you know, or something. Yeah. And like that, those weren't the conditions of any of our relationship, you know?

Like it was more complicated for everybody. And so that was really you know, I, yeah, I had already moved through a lot of that, but it was really nice to like, feel really like in community around that too. Mm-hmm. Because the reality is that we all manage grief differently. Yeah. Divorces is very hard and some people may be able to consciously uncouple, but that takes.

A lot of energy from both parties to be in that space. So if somebody's having a harder time than somebody else, or their hard time looks different than the other person's hard time, it's al it's impossible to actually consciously uncouple together. It has to go in waves, you know, you have to be very selfish too.

That's something you've talked to quite a few podcast guests about is like what it means to make that choice and be selfish and how. Being [00:33:00] selfish feels painful sometimes. It feels so painful. Yeah. Have you felt that? Yeah. No, I like, I had like a lot of especially, I mean, I was like sort of in getting out of this relationship, like disentangling from like some really intense codependent patterns where I was like, it was like impossible for inside the relationship for me to like, I mean I was like doing sort of.

What might look like selfish shit. I was sort of like enacting like some like unconscious, like, you know, like doing stuff for myself within it. Mm-hmm. But like consciously and like in terms of what I could like, articulate and in language, like say to myself, it was like impossible for me to like differentiate my needs from.

Like sort of figuring out how to make it okay for my ex, you know, like there was just like some real co-defendant shit in there. So the pros, the poss like, like coming up to the edge of it and being like, oh no, [00:34:00] I am out. You know, like was was some really intense having to like be like, I get to do this.

I don't have to like, 'cause yeah. Like, and it, and it, that moment, like my partner. Inside that coulda been dynamic, like denied my own need to leave. The relationship was like, you can't, you're, this is wrong. You are, you know, swayed by someone else. Like, couldn't see my agency inside of it and like really intensely like denied my capacity to leave him, you know, like, and.

For my own desire to leave him, you know, like couldn't see it even though it is so hard, you know, like whatever. I get why? But it was really intense and sucked and. So it became really hard to like stay with that. Like, no, I get to do this and it's not wrong to be done in this relationship. You know, like it's not, that's not a bad thing I'm doing necessarily, like [00:35:00] fundamentally, you know, like, but it was really hard to feel that.

So I did, yeah, it felt really selfish. I felt really like guilty at, for, I had to really move through like all this, like guilt or that like also, you know, like my. X's narrative was that like I was doing this bad thing to us. I was doing everything. You know, like when in reality, like we had, you know, there's a whole structure of the relationship that mm-hmm.

We were both participating in, you know? So like, yeah. At first it was really hard for me to like differentiate from that and be like, it's not wrong, or like, whatever. It's like that was the work immediately and you know, I found loved ones who could do that with me and like show up and like see that, you know, I was, yeah.

But it was, yeah, it was hard. That's messy and difficult. Yeah. Do you think now you're five years out, you building your community more on divorce, that you feel more of a relief outside of that guilt and stress and shame and all the things pile up? No, and that, and I, like, I could get there, you know, like it [00:36:00] was within that sort of, you know, those first, that was just like the work immediately, but like yeah, no, I like.

Feel? Yeah. I felt, I feel yeah. Like very relieved. Yes. In general and yeah, and like down, and they're great and I don't feel guilt about it and like, fuck all that, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, really very clearly in that and, you know, like mm-hmm. Being, shout out to my therapist, shout out to. Love one shout out.

You know, like, like for in the immediate thing, you know, this project then like did this whole other layer of it that was so beautiful. But like in those like first, you know, in the thick of like that like mm-hmm. Really leaned on. People for support inside that to help find that sense. Yeah. And you need to do the work to get through it because it's hard and it could overtake you.

Yeah. So it's, yeah. Leaning on your community and your space to, to become a new is [00:37:00] so, so important. And I like that. Every time I talk to a divorcee they're like three to five years out, I feel so much better. I'm like, beyond it. I'm like, there's hope for us all, you know? Totally. Mm-hmm. I think you've already shared a little bit about the different portions of the music that came out in your pieces and the different experiences that everybody's had.

And you're talking a little bit about some of your connection with it already, but I'm wondering, is there one piece in there, one song within the music that felt you felt more connected to, or that you, you know, that felt more personal to you than others? Hmm. Well, there's yeah, we like shared, so for all the songs, one person was sort of lead on it, you know, like came with lyrics, came with something, and then, but we like also shared authorship and, and sort of made things together.

I think the, like this song that like, so yeah, so this, this album was like shared initially over a toll free [00:38:00] number and we got. A billboard on, you know, on Atlantic Avenue here in New York, and then put it online to like, call in and it was like a telephonic performance. You could like call in and listen and and the like song that became the sort of jingle for the telephone.

That also then on the, like now on how it lives online, is the first and last song that you can listen to is this kind of refrain that I wrote really early on in the project. And it's this sort of like, You know, this sort of like self-soothing refrain that was just like, you can leave what isn't. The language is just, you can leave what isn't working.

You can, oh my God, I'm forgetting it. It's been some years. You can leave what isn't working.

You can leave working. You don't think you

can't. What you. You can leave, but you don't think you can. Yeah. You know, like this sort of, and so that for me was this like, just like, [00:39:00] it's like the self-soothing mantra or something I needed. Mm-hmm. So it's like something I sort of like retro give, gave myself Yeah. For the permission. Yeah. That permission, so like, yeah.

So that one is really, yeah, that one's like powerful for me. But then I love them all and they're all really different. Mm-hmm. And like have different sort of emotional tonalities, but then also musical genres. That was funny. We wanted to do was like each, like play with some kind of musical genre in the pieces we were doing.

You know, like, Find a little like Yeah. Be in, there's like a sort of dance track. There's like a, like emy like, or like housey, like dance track. Mm-hmm. There's like a country song. There's like a weirder sort of soundscape with spoken stuff song. There's like a real sort of like Carly Rae Jepsen esque pop song.

You know, like there's like, there's like, there's a sort of like electronic. E song, you know, like [00:40:00] there's like, we wanted to like play with all these different genres to like, Do those, like, you know, like excavate some theses feelings. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if people wanna listen to the full album, they can go to Divorcee Gay.

Is that the Yes. Divorcee, the, like, the sort of classy, you know, like two E's divorcee mm-hmm. Gay that came about was like, 'cause I didn't know you could like, Not everything had to be.com.org, and you could just do whatever. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, okay. You know? And yeah, the project was like, you know, using, there's the, there's the you know, film from the thirties, the gay divorcees or the gay divorce, the gay, what is it?

Yeah, the gay divorce, whatever. I Google it, everybody. Mm-hmm. But but there's that film and so it was like playing with that plan, you know, now it's like that was about like sort of. Straight couples getting happily divorced and now here we were like queer couples, like in the mess of divorce, you know, so like the gay divorcee.[00:41:00] 

So yeah, the website is divorcee gay. So go there if you wanna hear the full album. I'm wondering too about the about the toll free number and the community's reaction. What was the reaction to some of the music? What is some of the things you heard? How did people feel about it? Well on the number you could call in to listen, but you could then there was an option to leave us a message.

You could leave a voicemail for us. Mm-hmm. And yeah, we got like, probably like. I think like 250 voicemails. Wow. It was up for, for like a couple weeks and they were from all over and it was really, it was cool. It was like, I mean, it was a range. It was people being like, thank you, or like, whatever. And then there was like a bunch of like recent divorcees, like just like.

Talking to us about their experiences, you know, doing this sort of one way conversation about their experiences or, or in a kind of like, sort of like weird anonymous confessional booth thing, you know, because like we didn't know who they were, they didn't have to [00:42:00] introduce themselves. They could just like say where they were at.

So yeah, there are these beautiful messages that we have recordings that, that, you know, maybe someday we'll use them for something. But but yeah, a lot of like this like. Yeah, I think the sort of general thing was like, you know, getting out of an intimate entanglement can feel really lonely. So like mm-hmm.

The sort of sense of like, it was cool to like be inside a song that felt shared or something. Yeah. Yeah. There's not a lot of mainstream music about divorce. There's this fiery breakups, there's these, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. And what's the sort of, yeah, like. Yeah, totally. Mm-hmm. And we've talked a lot about community and the connection to art.

I love that you were able to find community through art in this, in this space. We need more. I. More connection like that with people and being able to express yourselves through a shared [00:43:00] art genre is really amazing. And that's why I wanted to have you on, and I'm glad that you've shared more of your story and talked about, you know, the difference between how you feel about gay divorce.

And I think we're in this like really prominent time, like you're saying, of queer divorces. I mean, queer people are under fire across. The country. Mm-hmm. For a lot of different reasons, but we're still, there's many people that are married. There's many people that are coming out more at these exceptional levels.

More people at like in the stage that I was in, that were in a heteronormative marriage and are now out queer. So I'm appreciate that we're continuing to have this conversations and more art about it and appreciate you sharing that. Could you share one more thing before I let you go is, as you think about it, What do you think is the most important thing for our listeners, somebody who's thinking about divorce or going through divorce to keep in mind as they're going through their own divorce possibly or rebuilding after it?

I don't know. I think, I mean, I think like [00:44:00] I come back to sort of. You know, pretty sort of like off said banal things that people say in a moment like this, is that like time changes everything or something, you know, or mm-hmm. Recovery is possible or you know, like, You'll heal or whatever, you know, like, like some stuff, but like, but I think there is, yeah, there is some just real fundamental thing or I think, you know, it's the, it's maybe my phrase like, you can leave, it isn't working.

You can leave what you don't think you can. Mm-hmm. Plus, you know, like, Everything changes. So, you know, it's like all the things you're feeling right now will transform in some moment, or like all the conditions you're in, like transformation is possible. Mm-hmm. And so even the like really hard parts of this or the sort of over materially overwhelming parts of this, like if you have a glimmer of [00:45:00] the possibility of something like feeling more.

Aligned with your flourishing, like that transformation is like, that can all happen. It maybe is like messy and slow, but like that, like those rearrangements of the very fundamental parts of your life, like are possible and that yeah, well actually like, we'll, you know, like we'll open onto, you know, like not in some like, Like rose color, you know, like mm-hmm.

In ea e like just like, and then your life gets better or something. But like, but like you can actually like address some of the, like most fundamental things about your life and shift them and, and find new ways of being in brand new relationships. Yeah. Transformation happens. Yeah. Transformation happens.

It's actually one of the only inevitable things in our lives. Inconsistency, growth, transformation, change. [00:46:00] It's very true. So, so true. Thank you for sharing that with, with me and for Sharing your music with us. I can put links up on the website of divorcee.gay.com. No, not.com. Divorcee dot gay, that's gay no.com.

That's just gay. Yeah. And also people wanna reach out and find you@ethanfilbrick.com. Yep. And also on Instagram as well. Totally. I'll put that on there. Totally. Cool. All right. Thank you so much for being with me today. I appreciate you. Yeah. So nice to meet you and so glad you're doing this. Yeah.

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Episode 10: Dr. Lynda Spann; Red Flags and When to Call it Quits

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Episode 8: Ash and Dawn, Healing and Building New Relationships Post Divorce